Loading...
The URL can be used to link to this page
Your browser does not support the video tag.
Home
My WebLink
About
Unalaska Technical Planning Meeting Proceedings 1982
4 iJEMVetteprKtrtenere|AOE A oe,w ;. ." -a 7asoieconsaiceee'mo 'Sy Sesii.,' , .te :nants -)."an DNA enemann nein halen ane 8 aoe , *"e :. -ob.-_eee .soe Lage a ak Cab ee a ' Pcpocas,'oh ah.ai a Ring hmOEEatenRNekreTeattenMeSelerT eye eT a e e _S ts getsTigTROEESianw 7tesn''".4 ' ” :2 apna me Seema Pn we deans Gm Hy ati my 4 '0 : a 4 attained eee a ee 2 ae)* «gh :' ; :wh a oan ae Re nemyegyrSamTyme:;Aen, .gg,eer s :A ee +Sette rate Bee sot elias a ee eg To hee,4 ar "A PARTAyarmo "Ris iin ade en oe wget py ete temerve eaiPal.ifaeoeeT 5 at ™mtoaMEETING. WITH REPRESENTATIVESOFREPUBLICGEOTHERMAL,INC. "CONCERNINGTHE UNALASKA ISLAND GEOTHERMAL PROJECT February lst,1982 Offices of Alaska Power Authority_344 West Fifth Ave. Anchorage,Alaska 9:00 o'clock,a.m. PROPERTY OF: Alaska Power Authority 334 W.5th Ave. Anchorage,Alaska 99501 CO] CC, R &R COURT REPORTERS 810N STREET.SUITE tOt SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7513 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 Neesame40see aise'OATE ISSUED TO HIGHSMITH =42-225 PRINTED INUS.A. DATE ISSUED TO (ON THE RECORD) MR.HUTTRER:I think the idea here is to stay as informal as we can,in the constraints of a little bit of structure.So,if we could begin the meeting with an introduction,perhaps starting at the far end of the room,and... MR.BURTON:I'm Jesse Burton,City Manager, City of Unalaska. MR.JONES:Marvin Jones,General Manager of the Ounalashka Corporation,in Unalaska. MR.TUTIAKOFF:Vince Tutiakoff,President, Ounalashka Corporation. ) MR.LEWIS:I'm Wayne Lewis,Land Director of the Aleut Corporation,Native Regional Corporation for that area. MR.BEEBEE:John Beebee,Energy Systems, Incorporated. MR.REEDER:I'm John Reeder,with the State of Alaska,Division of Geological and Geophysical Surveys. . MR.RIEHLE:Jim Riehle,U.S.Geological Survey,Branch of Alaskan Geology. MR.HUTTRER:Jerry Huttrer,Project Manager for Republic Geothermal for the Unalaska project. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:I'm Dave Hedderly-Smith with the Division of Minerals and Energey Management of the Department of Natural Resources. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.ARO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8943 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 MS...DeJONG:I'm Patti DeJong.I'm with the Alaska Power Authority. MR.NEFF:Paul Neff,Dames &Moore. MR.GRABACKI:Steve Grabacki,with Dames & Moore. MR.ARCE:Gary Arce,University of Alaska, Fairbanks. MR.ANSARI:Jamal Ansari,University of Alaska,Fairbanks,Department of Petroleum Engineering. MR.ISSELHARDT:Courtney Isselhardt, Republic Geothermal,Senior Exploration Geologist. MR.MARKLE:Don Markle,Division of Energy and Power Development. MR.YARDER:Dick Yarder,Republic Geothermal. MR.WESCOTT:Jim Wescott,the Geophysical Institute at the University of Alaska,Fairbanks. MR.TURNER:Don Turner,Geophysical Institute,University of Alaska. ROMAN MOTYKA,Alaska Geological Survey. MR.ROBISON:Jim Robison,U.S.G.S,Menlo Park. MR.LARSEN:Mark Larsen,College Intern for the Geological Survey. MR.CAREY:I'm Dwight Carey.I'm Manager R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 10t SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 : ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 wo ee eee ee age ee _: of Environmental Affairs for Republic Geothermal and Chief Technician. MR.HUTTRER:Thank you.It looks like we've got the group pretty well put together.It's representative of what we hope are the sources for information for the entire project.There may be some late arrivers,and we'll identify them when they get here.Right,we'll fit them in. A quick word about how we'd like to operate.I think in the interests of time,so that we don't take too much of your time --we have already imposed upon you for a day --we suggest that we might be able to order Lunch out from across the street. I think there's a sub shop.If somebody has a better idea,I'd sure be happy to unders- --to hear it and to entertain it.But I think it'd be a lot more efficient if we had lunch here rather than to scatter to the four winds and then try to reassemble. I'd like Patti DeJong to make a few comments about the project objectives at this time. MS.DeJONG:Most of you are pretty familiar with the project and how it's --it doesn't reach --and how we happen to be doing (Inaudible).But I'll just briefly remind you all.Last year's Legislature appropriated $5,000,000.00 dollars for what they call geothermal drilling at Unalaska. The long term goal or the long term --yeah,the long term goal of the program for the Power Authority is to produce electrical power on line at Unalaska should that be economically feasible. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 The short term objectives of this program are basically exploration oriented.We want to locate the resource,the deep geothermal resource,to the best degree possible,and to define the resource,to determine what quality resource is there, try to estimate how long the resource will last for power generation.I thought what I'd do is just read to you a few words that I stole from the U.S.Department of Energy for our solicitation when we were looking for a contractor to do this, just to show you the kind of guidance we're giving our contrator, Republic.The situation being that we have $5,000,000.00 for exploration,but to do a good,thorough job,it might actually cost more.We're going to have to optimize,do the best possible exploratory program for.the funds available.The guidance the U.S.D.O.E..gives is that it is imperative to obtain the maximum amount of resource information from the funding available. Thus,it's necessary to plan pre-drilling exploratory activities and drilling scenarios to.optimize funding.Future funding by the State and other entities will be influenced by the result of this exploratory program.And the guidelines we've given are quite similar to those of the U.S.Department of Energy.in order to optimize funding. The purpose of the phase --the first phase of exploration is to select the best site to test drill the reservoir.The exploration program has to be kept as modest as possible,consistent with developing adequate data to accomplish R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 the purpose.Each item of the proposed exploration program has to be designed to contribute to the understanding of the location and the properties of the resource,in order to facilitate selection of the best site for exploratory drilling of the hydrothermal,water or steam,geothermal resource. As the contractor --as Republic goes ahead and performs the exploration program,they're going to be keeping up with data analysis and interpretation of the data that they acquire. This data,of course,is going to be added to data that already exists.Many of the people in this room have already acquired data for the geothermal resource.We'll.be putting together their information and the new information to come up with some targets for shallow drilling,for thermal gradient holes,--and Jer will be going into more detail on that.--and to finally locate a best hole....S0,they're going to make the best use of the funding available,and come up with their best estimate as to where we should drill the.deep hole.And that's about as much as I really want to..... MR.HUTTRER:Fine,thank you,Patti.Do you have any questions,or anybody who doesn't understand the scope of the project,or the purposes,or objectives of it? As soon as we get the viewgraph set up --Carol,perhaps we could shut it down br a second. (OFF THE RECORD) (ON THE RECORD) R &R COURT REPORTERS G10 N STREET.SUITE 101 $09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 MR.HUTTRER:.On the wall we're flashing a viewgraph of our work plan to execute the project that Patti's exlained.As you can see,it's been broken down into two phases.And for your information,it's been broken down into 1 --phase 1 has been broken down into Phases l.a.and l1.b.We are now doing phase l.a.I.Those little roman numerals that you see going up and down and left and right across the screen represent what I call stages of work.Those are the subdivisions of the overall project.State I is what we're doing today,the data review and technical planning met---meeting.During this phase of work,which will involve today plus the rest of the week for the four of us that are up from Republic,we're.going to try to get as much of the geologic data,land and environmental data,and logistical information as we can get together from your help and from the help of --with the help of people who are -who are not at this meeting;that is,some contractors.We did not specifically invite contractors to this meeting because we felt that this might be prejudicial.They might learn --get some information that would help them in bidding for some of the work,and we might show favoritism that would not be a good idea. The second stage of work,II,will be to take the information that we gather here today and compile it from -- compile the geochemical data,the geophysical data,and formulate plans for some of the early field work --excuse me -- R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 mn ne et ee ge ee ee _we ee -on ne Se for some of the early field work that will be done as soon as we can get out in Unalaska---get on the island and get up near the volcano this spring.We will be trying to obtain air photos possible during this stage.It may not be realistic at all, weather-wise.But we are going to --we are required to try to put together a topographic map that encompasses parts of the white area back over here behind Wayne and Vince.You can see on the map on the wall there is nothing but white on this volcano,MaKushin. | Stage III,land and environmental field work,will be actual field time spent collecting well site data,base line collection,environmental data information,and we will be getting as much information as we can that will help us site some of the early thermal drilling --thermal gradient drilling sites.It is possible because of time constraints that we may have to arbitrarily pick the location of the first thermal gradient drilling well sites,relatively arbitrarily because of permitting constraints.We don't know those --those numbers and those time frames yet. The field exploration in stage IV --Roman numeral IV -- will consist of the confirmatory geological mapping of hydrothermal alteration areas;a study of the geothermal manifestations on the mountain;further sampling of fumarolic gasses,fluids,and ground waters,if necessary -and we realize that a great deal of data has been already collected R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 9950! by Roman Motyka and John Reeder,and there's a good chance that the work we have to do will be minimal.But nevertheless,there will be some other analysis so that we're comfortable with the data, In addition,we are considering and planning to doa mercury soil mapping survey.If the soil is not adequate,it may become a vegetaion survey.If the vegetation isn't adequate,we'll have to rethink the use of mercury in .there. We also will collect some geophysical data,and we are anxious to receive input from those of you here having geophysical expertise,or at least geophysical opinions concerning the form of --of the technique that we should use that would be most cost effective.I will say at the outlet that Republic is in favor of doing an SP,a self-potential survey,on the mountain.We believe that we can pick up meaningful information concerning the location of fractures and ground water movement zones for a relatively low cost.That is not a difficult technique to implement.And when we talk about geophysics a little bit later on the agenda,I will show a viewgraph of a project recently completed by --by Republic in an area that resembles Unalaska geologically to a great - - to a great degree. Page(sic)V - -Roman numeral V up there is another data compilation and program planning step.During this time we will integrate any new information that we've acquired with the R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 710- old information.We will make,improve,and modify geologic Maps,geologic cross sections.We will be analysing gasses and waters,and soil samples.We'll be interpreting the geochemical data,inverting geophysical data to understand and to prepare subsurface models.We'll be:determining on the basis of this work the best thermal gradient well sites,and also intergrating new and environmental and logistical parameters with the geological data.In other words,we'll be getting down to --to brass tacks in deciding what we can do and what we'can't do, because the ultimate well site might be a compromise of sites that are the best geologically with sites that are more realistically accessible logistically or for permitting reasons. We will also be obtaining permits during stage V for the temperature gradient holes,selecting the contractor,and of course scheduling all sorts of logistical affairs for personnel,equipment,materials,site access construction,if necessary,and for 'supervisory personnel,setting up camps,and so forth. Now,that would be the end of phase 1,and phase l is really a planning stage,as we see it,and phase 2 is a doing phase.I will show you a calendar in a moment that shows you how these things fall on a yearly basis.And coincidentally, more than anything else,phase 1 will occupy most of 1982.In fact,it'Sa big program to try to get through in 1982.I certainly hope it can be done.We'll certainly try.Weather R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -ll- plays a major program(sic)--major factor,major role in determining whether we'll finish. Phase 2 is the doing phase,and starts with page -- Roman numeral VI,thermal gradient drilling.In the Lower 48, thermal gradient drilling to depths of about 2,000 feet is no big deal.You merely drive a truck into a site that you want to occupy,dig a couple of backhoe pits if you need to,and mud up the hole and go to work.And 2,000 feet can be drilled in a very short period of time.Depending on how many drilling problems you have,it can take as little as a week,or it can take as much as three weeks.But it's certainly no problem. On Unalaska that won't be the case.We're going to need to get a machine up on the hill that can handle 2,000 feet with loss circulation problems,and bad weather,and equipment break- down's,and so forth. Back to stage VII,now we're into a data synthesis mode where we're looking over the information we get from the thermal gradient wells,and we're selecting a site on the basis of the thermal gradient data,together with the geologic,environmental, and logistical data at which we will place the deep well. And the deep well,of course,is the ultimate objective of the Power Authority's program.During this stage we will also be designing the deep --the exploratory well,which means coming out with drilling specifications,casing programs,mud programs, logging and cementing programs.Republic has done this in many R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SLITE 101 509 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501" 24 25 -212- sites all over the world,we're quite experienced at it,and we don't anticipate problems in designing a well drilling project at Unalaska.That design should be no different than for any- where else. Stage VIII,off to the left,is acquisition of a permit. And we will be doing all the environmental impact monitoring, preparation and submittal of the application,and doing what needs to be done to ride herd on the Legislators that control this --the permit process. Stage IX is logistical planning.Stage IX goes on simultaneously with Stage VIII,and is greatly --the logistical planning for the deep well.This is for transportation, communication,housing,equipment --for equipment and materials, emergency plans,repair facilities,payroll facilitation, coordination with --with the local entities as far as obtaining casual labor,people that would like to work on the project.All of this will-be handled both in Stage IX and probably before Stage IX.We'd like to have an ongoing dialogue with all the sources,all the people that can help us get this project off the ground. Stage X is the well drilling,and I won't go into any detail,but it involves eight or ten steps from setting up camp and location preparation,all the way through the initiation of drilling and performance of a short,three to four hour well test.We hope that the budget is adequate to drill between R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 eigen ee we :-wee eee ly -13 - four and six thousand feet,as presently constituted.The budget can be completely blown by weather considerations and by logistical problems.We're very well aware that --we have made what we think are contingency provisions,but as you people are far more aware than we,the best-laid plans can go awry if the weather turns completely sour,and if we have some major problems in getting a rig on site.But we hope that we'll be able to go between four and six thousand feet at any rate,which may be deep enough to test the reservoir adequately --quite possible.It's over a kilometer,and everything I've read indicates that the resource has a very good chance of being encountered at depths of approximately a kilometer.We'll complete that well.Stage XI is a well testing stage in which our engineers from Republic will test fluid quantity,quality, temperatures,reservoir draw-down,the amount of silting in the well,corrosion and scaling problems,and all those aspects that are very pertinent to the ultimate production rate of the -- of the well. Stage XII --Roman numeral XII --is the synthesis of all of this into conclusions,recommendations,and a report which I won't elaborate on.It's merely an assemblage of all of the information we've received into a form that can be used by the Power Authority and by other workers. And Stage XIII and XIV --one of the two will happen. Stage XIII is well abandonment and demobilization.That is if R &R COURT REPORTERS 810N STREET.SUITE 101 509 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 - 14- the well is useless,and is determined to be dry,it would be abandoned in accordance with all applicable regulations. Stage XIV would be a situation in which the well was good, does have potential,and there will be further work,but the well would be suspended.pending the next financing step.It's also conceivable that we may have monies in line to keep moving;that the project will --will keep rolling on without any significant interruptions. So,I wonder,Dwight,if you could put the other slide on,please?A little higher if you could.Thanks.Again,on the left,you see the Roman numerals,the stages I through XIV,and you're all able to read as well as I.The little triangles are report submittal dates.The first one represents the report that will be due at the conclusion of this meeting. There's another report that's due at the end of Stage II.This time it doesn't have a triangle;it's been asked for by the Power Authority.And the stripe --vertical,gray,shaded zones are what we consider to be intermittant follow-up or preliminary work.It's merely an artistic device to show that we would not be working intensively on some of these projects, but we would be working on several things simultaneously. I think that would wrap up my summary of our --of Republic's plans for the moment.If there are any questions,I'd sure be pleased to entertain or talk to them. (No response) R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 pe ee :eee wee eee cw ew er ® -15- If not,I think we move along to the next point on the agenda,which would be a --what I'd like to ask for is a comment by any of the Unalaska representatives from the Aleut Corporation,or from the village,or from the town.I'd welcome any off-the-cuff comments that you might like to make regarding the local interest in the project,local anxieties,the problems that you have,and let's start getting an exchange of ideas on that subject. MR.LEWIS:Maybe I can --I'm Wayne Lewis. Maybe I can speak on behalf of the Aleut Corporation to initiate this dialogue.We're very enthused,of course,to have the State lavish money on our land.Can you not hear me? Okay,you can hear me now.(Inaudible)fashionable to have at least one volcano.The question I have,and probably can't.be answered here,is that,as you may know,under the Claims Act, the subsurface resources which generate money somewhere down the line are sharable --the monies from those resources are sharable under section 7(4)of the Claims Act.And I don't expect anyone to answer this here,but geothermal is pretty exotic stuff,and it wasn't really anticipated,I don't think, in the Claims Act when most people had in mind oil and other subsurface resources as being sharable.And for those of you who don't know,or from Republic,possibly,what the Claims Act says is that without taking into consideration the question of deductions and all of that,for every dollar a region gets R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 309 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0$72 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -16- in from its subsurface resources,that dollar is sharable -- 70%of that dollar goes out the windowto the other eleven -- actually --yeah,to the other --to all twelve regions on a per capita basis,And so I'm just bringing up the notion here for people to think about that I --I've just begun to wrestle with the concept of how does this really grind into that whole question of revenue sharing with other regions,and does it at all since really we're talking about water,which can be appropriated by the State,but I don't think owned by a regional corporation.Anyway,I'll bring that one up just to kind of kick things off,because it has some implications,especially if this is successful down the road,and I don't know what they are, Anyway,we're delighted to have this meeting --be at this meeting.I kind of doubt whether there's any other state in the Union in whicha meeting like this would be held today. Certainly not in the Stateof Washington would that legislature have splashed $5,000,000.00 around,or in Oregon or in other depressed states.So -=-and certainly on such a speculative basis they wouldn'tbe doing it.So,anyway,we're very happy to see all of you in attendance.I just want to acknowledge -- and then I'll quiet,I promise --the early work of Don Markle, who promoted this concept,and is here today.Vince,anything? MR.TUTIAKOFF:Well,the Ounalashka Corporation at one time in the beginning had thought about R &R COURT REPORTERS .SRO AVENUEBIONSTREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W. 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -17- selecting the surface estate of Makushin.Our selections do go up to and abut the seven selected known sites or potential sites of --of this geothermal energy.They go around 'em,and basically is a corridor to --to that area.Our biggest -- probably our involvement as the Ounalashka Corporationwill be surface --surface estate,transportation to and from,access, The Ounalashka Corporation would like --you know --at this time to let everybody know,we're --we'd like to see this thing -- this project go.We're in favor of it.We'll try to help every way we can,I'm sure.We did --we helped John while he was out there,and another group that came out earlier last year as much as we could,and the State in giving access to go up and there do this study.As this goes on the Ounalashka Corporation,of course - main intent is to get revenues,get a profit,get into the project one way or another as possibly a contractor, or helpers,or whatever.At this point we don't know what that is.We're new,we're trying to understand what's going to happen and relay that information to --to my board of directors.Because they'll --they're very interestedin it, excited,and hopefully can be a big part of this development in the next five to ten years.Hopefully we'll have power that will take a big chunk out of our money we have to spend just to pay for the oil right now,heating our homes and stuff.TI don't know what else --do you have any questions about what our land selection is that I can help you there?I'm mostly R &R COURT REPORTERS 810N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-751S5 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 weneege Rn te ee ge game coe ..we -.;-"rr eared we -ee meee -18- the land director,and have been for about the last ten years. MR.JONES:Marvin Jones of..... MR.HUTTRER:Could I ask a question?This is Jerry Hettrer.I was just curious whether you had any problems --you're painting a very nice picture,and we're glad to see that you have a positive attitude towards the project. Are there any anxieties that your people on the island have about this?Are there things that they're mumbling about that do concern 'tem just kind of quietly,'cause it wouldn't be unusual. MR.TUTIAKOFF:I think what you're probably going to see happen as this project moves ahead,and as you get. into your different stages,one of them being activating and getting access,roads built up and through --you're going to be running into people who have campsites in adjacent areas.One of the largest salmon-trout steams runs --comes down out of Makushin Valley.It's Broadbase Stream. MR.LEWIS:This right here. MR.TUTIAKOFF:You'll probably run into a lot of possibly subsistence fishermen who utilize that area,and would see as possible destruction of their site.Now,what would have to be done here,and be done early is take the approach that the oil companies have,and educate the people in geothermal as what --what it's going to do,what it can do, what you will be doing,and things of those nature.I'm sure R&R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 19- Jesse will probably get into that also,but there are people -- you know --who don't understand what geothermal is,and how it can help them.And I think that's what's going to have to happen from your end.Any other threats,I can't really see other than the fishery end of it. MR.HUTTRER:This is Hettrer again.Does the same constraint apply to Driftwood Bay - Driftwood Valley as well as to Makushin Valley? MR.TUTIAKOFF:Driftwood is kind of up in the air right now.We --we did try and select that area,and .: it's --it was an overselection by thirteen villages,and I don't --Wayne might be able to bring you up to date,but as far as I know Cook Inlet,I believe,has selected that area,or is in the process of selecting it.Wayne? MR.LEWIS:This is Wayne Lewis.Words don't exist to describe that selection process.At least I haven't found 'em yet.But the Air Force had an installation in there for a long time,and has essentially abandoned it, and --but insofar as the biological questions about streams and salmon and so on,I don't know.Do you,Vince?I don't know whether that's a sensitive.... MR.TUTIAKOFF:No,not in Driftwood Bay. MR.LEWIS:Okay. MR.TUTIAKOFF:There's three streams there that are basically small trout salmon streams.There's no big R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -20- trout production out of those streams. MR.LEWIS:This is Wayne Lewis again.We hope to end up with Driftwood Bay,or have someone end up with Driftwood Bay,preferably not the Cook Inlet Region.We'll see. We have proposed to trade the entire State of Arkansas for -- for Driftwood Bay. MR.HUTTRER.:Thanks,Wayne.Are there any other comments from representatives of the area --the local area? MR.BURTON:Jesse Burton,City Manager. I just want to say that our,of course,main interest is in the end product here.We're looking for cheap energy for the area. Past studies have showed that hydro just isn't going to make it.I suppose if we connected a bunch of dams all the way past Makushin from Unalaska we might be able to get some sort of potential there,but hydro just isn't making it.And other than geothermal,wind hasn't come along --wind generation just hasn't come along fast enough to - you know --for us to even consider it.So,other than nonrenewable resource type generation,this is the only thing going.So,we're very interested in looking at the end product here.Unalaska,as you know,is probably the fastest growing community in --in the State,and we have a tremendous economic potential there. Bottomfish could just really blast open that area --you know -- to the real economic advantage throughout the State.And one R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 thing that's going to be necessary is fairly inexpensive energy.The community is looking toward establishing Unalaska as a port of entry and also as a free trade zone,|couléa -- you know --establish other uses for the energy --you know -- that could come from Makushin that we don't even think about right now.So,yeah,we're indeed --we're really interested, we're really excited about the project,and we'll bend over backwards to help you. MR.HUTTRER :Super,that's really encouraging.Yes,Wayne? MR.LEWIS:I want to touch on something that Vince brought up just briefly,and that is that everyone involved with this project needs to remember that there have been an assault of special interests on Unalaska and in the Aleutians over the past three or four years,led by Outer- Continental Shelf,oil and gas development,and bottomfish things,so you've got to think that even though this is important to you,it's just one of a number of issues out there that this needs to be blended with,so it's very special,but you've gota lot of people competing for the same ears out there. MR.MARKLE:Jerry?This is Don Markle with the Division of Energy.After being out there a couple of times,I think there's one point that could be raised,is there is a-core of people out there in Unalaska,as there is in most communitites of Alaska,that aren't inclined towards any R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8943 272-7313 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 crete or tette ceceeee ees eet om ss oo co -22- 1 development.And I think you'll run into 'em eventually sometime 2 during the course of it.Unalaska,once again,is the --one of 3 the fastest growing towns in Alaska,and therefore,any more 4 develpment may be just the one that peaks 'em --you know. 5 You're just --I'm saying this as kind of an advoc---you 6 know --I'm not saying it very politely towards 'em;I'm just 7 saying that there are this group,and I want --I think you'll 8 be real aware that it is there.There's a lot of people that 9 don't want to turn it .into another Kodiak,and that's part of 10 the reason they're out there.And educating those people to 1 the benefits is going to be real important during the course of this. 13 MR.HUTTRER:Well,I think --this is 14 Hettrer.I think that,as for Republic,we're going to try to 15 get along with people as well as we can.You can never please 16 everybody all the time,but we feel that this is going to be 17 an effort that will take the Power Authority,it's going to take 18 contractors,we're going to have to get cooperation all along. 19 And as you say,there's still going to be people who won't be 20 happy,and we're going to have to function in that mode.So, a let's be realistic,and we'll do the best we can and try not 22 to cross too many people's fishing streams,and close all the 23 gates behind us --you know --as down below,down south,any *4 time you cross somebody's gate,somebody's land,and they're Q 25 afraid you're going to let their cattle out,you start closingy R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE277-0572 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7515 1 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 wea aa ann mm Mm mr ee ay ae "eer °°:+:ow a ewe ee __ -23- gates,you don't hunt on their land without permission.And I think if we treat people with a little courtesy and a little respect,and let 'em know what we're doing,perhaps they'll come around. MR.ISSELHARDT:This is Isselhardt.I think what we ought to make clear to the people of Unalaska,their representatives here,is the fact that the geothermal energy is --will be produced,if it's there,strictly for use on the island.It's not something like oil that can be taken away from you.Geothermal energy is very site intensive,if you will. You have to use it where you find it,unless you have a long power line,and I don't think the power line stretches off the island.And in this case it would be --it could be used only as much as is necessary for Unalaska's use,and if the potential is there,as the population and as the town grows,the resource can grow with the town.But I think we need to make it clear that it's basically for the use of the people on Unalaska,and any industries that they're going to xpand or exist as of now. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:I'm Dave Hedderly-Smith for the Department of Natural Resources.And for Wayne I'll address 7(i)and the implications of it.Certainly as far as the State's concerned,the minute geothermal waters get above 120 centigrade,it is a mineral.It's not a --it can't be appropriated through a water right;it has to be leased from the State.And I suspect you'll be facing the same thing.7(1i)of R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7313 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -24- ANCSA --ANCSA'sS a very complicated piece of legislation,and I suspect those people back in Washington would like to think that they thought everything out very carefully before they passed it.And I agree with you;they probably didn't consider geothermal resources.But I doubt that you'd get a legislative solution to the problem of sharing revenues on that.7(i)'s under a lot of discussion among various regional corporations. Maybe you can work it out amongst yourselves.I think that's the only solution you have. MR.HUTTRER;Well,if there are no more comments pertinent to local interest,I think we should just move along.At this point I'd like to start what we call the technical information exchange.And if you'll look at the agenda,I've got fourteen topics,which could take a fair amount of time.I appreciate your .patience very much,but please,if you are about to fall asleep because the topic is not of your immediate interest,please-feel free to leave the room,or walk around,or come and get some coffee.I don't want to keep people sitting here until they're --they're really not comfortable.At the same time,I certainly would like the input from all of you at any time that you have something meaningful to add.Sir? MR.BURTON:Burton here from Unalaska. For that very reason,I may not be here all day.However,I would like you people to know that Marv Jones sitting next to R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7915 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -25- me,is the general manager of the Ounalashka Corporation,but he also sits on the Unalaska Planning Commission.And I'm sure if he's around and I'm not can answer any question for the City as well as I could. MR.HUTTRER:That's fine.If we haven't gotten to a subject in which you'd like to make a comment,we'll take it out of turn just to fit it in,and so that we don't lose the benefit if your experience on it. The first item I'd like to talk about is the subject of Maps and air photos,and logistical aids of that kind.I'm going to speak just to the limits of my experience on it,and I'd like some input from anybody who has some comments to make.The best map that I am awareof is behind Vince on the wall.As far as I know,there's nothing superior to that that's available.I have --I understand that flying weather at Unalaska at this time of year and for the next several months,actually most of the year,is extremely inclement,and that you just have to be lucky to be able to break free and get some decent pictures. What I have seen --and here comes another map on the wall at this time.This is on the scale of an inch to a kilometer, approximately,which is a slight improvement.And there does seem to be some topography that's been added in the vicinity of the top of Makushin.Maybe John Reeder would like to comment on how those contours were added,and if he --he might have some comments as far as...... R&R COURT REPORTERS S10 N STREET.SUITE 10t SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -26- MR.MARKLE:A repitograph(ph). MR.HUTTRER:.....just a repitograph(ph), eh?John,maybe you'd like to.... MR.REEDER:Yeah,this is John.Yeah,it was done very quickly.Going back with respect to this map that Jerry has made reference to,basically this map was put together to serve as a base for a lot of geologic work that I've been involved with down on Unalaska.The actual source for the map is old U.S.Army military maps.These maps are still available.They're fairly rare,but you can still get 'em.I -- My general experience with these maps --they are at a scale 1 to 50,000,and they're at a contour of -oh,of about 100 feet - -is that the maps are not that good.Rumors that I've heard from the U.S.G.S.is that they did examine these maps for the possibility of trying to make U.S.G.S.standard topographic maps from them,and U.S.G.S.decided the quality wasn't that good.Based on some of the experience of working with the maps, I have found peaks to not be located exactly where they should be.And I would say that in some cases that I wouldn't be surprised if the countour errors are greater than +100 feet. Now,with respect.to the blank area in the Makushin region,we did survey in some points.Basically,the countours there are based upon examination of very poor,old photographs.Most of the points that we took for elevations are based on altimeters, which is fairly good.We did do some triangulation with the R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 27- theadolite(ph),and some of the points were located,actually, with hand-held Bruntons.So,I would say the accuracy on that part of it is probably,in general,+500 feet,and in a few cases it's a lot better,like +25 feet. MR.HUTTRER:What do you think the chances are of flying --give me a percentage of the time that you could actually have to take pictures?Would you or Roman have any thoughts about that? MS.DeJONG:You might --you might bring up some.of..what.we've discussed.about getting pictures flown, and doing a cooperative effort.This is Patti DeJong,the Power Authority.The DGGS and the Power Authority are talking about the possibility of combining projects and having air photos flown if the weather permits this coming season. | MR.REEDER:Yeah,this is John - getting air photographs out in the Aleutians is a problem.And it just --there's just no way of predicting.One just has to try and be willing to accept the fact that you just may not get what you want to get.Now,the State Geological Survey does have need for obtaining air photo coverage for Akutan.We'd like to get it for Unalaska.We need it for Umnak,and in general,we wouldn't mind seeing it being picked up anywhere out there.And so we probably will be pushing to try to get that.But whether one will actually get the air photos or not is questionable. Now,I put ina lot of effort in trying to get old air photo- R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -238- graphs,especially for Unalaska.The air photo base that was used to make this map,as far as I know,doesn't exist.The air photographs were flown,supposedly,in 1937 --or is it 1938?I think it was 1938.And Marian Zoola(ph),back in the Defense Mapping Agency,back in Washington,D.C.,claims that in 1979 the basement of their building was moved --every- thing in it was moved to another building,and supposedly there was two or three rooms down there where everything was disposed of,and unfortunately included a lot of the old stuff for the Aleutians,and they think that's what happened to those old air photographs,so they may not exist.'Now,I have been able to obtain some 19--=I think it's 1950 or '51 air photographs, which cover things a little better than what the U.S.G.S.air photos do,but they're of poor quality. MR.HUTTRER:Have you lookec into --this is Hettrer --have you looked into the availability of U-2's or satellite photography that could be enhanced that did just happen to catch things on a clear day?Have you gone through any of the files on that? MR.REEDER:Such thingsdo exist.I -- you know --they're pretty high altitude.I just don't know if you can really enhance it to get what you want out of it. MR.MOTYKA:It's Motyka.I don't think there's any U-2 coverage of the Aleutians yet.I believe it was on NASA's agenda,but I don't think they've done it. R &R COURT REPORTERS 81ON STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -29 MR.REEDER:Yeah,I'd like to say one more thing.This is John again.The State is going to try to get a agreement with NASA to get U-2 coverage out there.Now, whether we'll actually achieve that or not,I don't know. MS.DeJONG:Are they still (Inaudible)? MR,REEDER:NASA --to me,NASA's a hard group to deal with.So,I don't know what --what the problem is.It's just --I think one of the big problems with NASA is just scheduling it.That's a big problem. | MR.HUTTRER-:Moving along a little bit,we had given some thought --that is,at Republic --we had given some thought to the problems involved with locating yourself accurately in the field in situations where you had dense fog and you were still trying to do something useful when you're up in the field.We had given some thought to trying to put beacons or radio transmitters on a few high spots,and triangulating from them,or even using existing Loran or Shoran facilities that are --or even VLF transmitters that are used for submarine navigation.Do any of you with some practical experience have any comments on those possible methods? They're do-able with a helicopter;you can put things in site,in place.And you can do some climbing here and there.But I'd like to hear somebody with some practical thoughts who's had their feet on the ground. MR.WESCOTT:This is Gene Wescott.How R &R COURT REPORTERS 810N STREET.SUITE 101 509 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -30 about an initial navigation system on the helicopter? MR.HUTTRER .:Well,I'm not so worried about the helicopter finding itself,because they won't fly if they can't see anything anyway.I was thinking --and maybe I'm misinterpreting your question --but I'm trying to find out how the land based ground crews would locate themselves accurately when trying to do,say,soil mercury surveys,or a moving survey,not something where I want to find out where one drill hole is;that we can sooner or later triangulate in.I'm talking about where we're trying to move 100 meters,couple more 100 meters,and doing a traverse across the countryside.How can we best locate ourselves?An alternative was to perhaps just take a clear day,and flag yourself in on a grid system, and then superpose the grid system onto mapping when you get the chance later on. MR.WESCOTT:Yeah,that sounds like - like the thing to do.But I think with an INS on a helicopter you could fly around and --you know --locate yourself quite well, put down stakes and then survey from those. MR.HUTTRER:How accurately will an INS work?- MR.WESCOTT:Oh,they --they depend to a certain extent,but - you know --you can get down to like 100 feet or so in --under good conditions.I mean,you can get that kind of closure. R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -31- MR.HUTTRER:Yeah,100 feet will be adequate for openers until we start to pin things down. Actually,if a resource is so small that we miss it by having errors of 100 feet,we don't have to worry about it,anyway. At least that's our thought for the moment.Any other --yes, Wayne? MR.LEWIS:Well,amongst other things,I manage a crab vessel,and inso---the Loran system will find you a crab pot in the middle of the Bering Sea.So,it may have some application here.I mean literally,that's how you get back to each pot,is to mark down your location on --using a Loran.So,it's pretty accurate. MR.MARKLE:How portable is it? MR.HUTTRER It's portable enough.You could --you could get the...... MR.LEWIS:We'll rent you ours,Don,if that's what you...... MR.HUTTRER :Well,I'm --that's a good - that's at least..... MR.LEWIS:Crab vessels have two Lorans on them.One is a back-up.So,it's pretty small. MR.HUTTRER .The Loran unit itself is..... MR.LEWIS:I don't know how it works. MR.HUTTRER .....like a portable radio. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -32- MR.LEWIS:.....mystical to me.Pardon me. MR.HUTTRER :Yeah,excuse me.This is Hettrer.The Loran itself is the size of a small stereo unit, and you --it takes you 30 seconds to stabilize once you push in your coordinates or your key.That's encouraging. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Hedderly-Smith.I think Loran's still going to be just within three or four hundred yards,though.And the inertialnay,systems,I don't think, will be available.BLM is using up every one of those they can to be surveying State and Native selections.They're also going to be very expensive.And if you can't fly in for four days or five days out there,you're going to be paying $5,000.00 a day for that piece of equipment. MS.DeJONG:Are some helicopters normally equipped with inertial nav.? MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:No,they're not.They have a refined navigational systems on helicopters.I've used 'em in the past,and they've been inadequate.Used 'em on the North Slope.You're really after good pilotsif you have good maps.I would say what you want to do is flag in your surveys while you do 'em,and go back later and figure out where you were.Take a lot of lathe with you. MR,HUTTRER;sounds reasonable.Any other comments on that subject of maps and air photos,topography in general? R &R COURT REPORTERS B10N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 ° -33- MR.MOTYKA:I'd like to get back to the air photos.Patti said that you're pursuing the possiblity of springing some money loose to do the mapping,air photo -- getting air photo coverage from Makushin.Is Geothermal Republic(sic)going to contribute to that alsc? MS.DeJONG:This is part of what Geo- - Republic did not propose to fund the aerial mappings...DGGS and the Power Authority have been discussing the possibility of putting some priority on air photos of Unalaska.We're eager to get them one way or another.Talking to John,it sounds like DGGS's schedule for air photos is compatible with ours right now,and to the degree that we can,we'd like to make use of the DGGS budget for that.But if we need to go beyond the scope of what DGGS has planned,or put some additional prioritization on air photos,then the Power Authority does have some budget set aside for that --..for such contingencies. | MR.HUTTRER:This is Hettrer again.Patti, I do have about $50,000.00 available to participate in,so that I'd just as soon save it to use on a drill hole,but on the other hand,we did anticipate putting some dollars into it. Roman? MR.MARKLE:Jerry?This is Don Markle. When I was working on this about two years ago we worked with the military on this SR-70 medium altitude aircraft,rather than high flying U-2's.And they have it up here,and they have it R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 «277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99801 = -34- up here periodically on training missions.And we had talked to them about a $30,000.00 program to shoot the entire Chain starting at --up at the Valley of Ten Thousand Smokes,all the way out.And they way they were going to do it,they were going to base it in town for 60 days,and wait for a clear day for the whole Chain --you know.One out of sixty,you might be able to get it.And then they have --they have seven suites of photos they take,including radar,site scan,et cetera. 'And they were going to shoot the whole thing at as low altitude as they could.And --you know --they were going to do it as a training mission.So,I'll pull out that old proposal and give it to you,and maybe you can run that down again.It might be a real asset.. MR.HUTTRER.:This is Hettrer.This is excellent.If we could get something like that --timing,of course,is --is important,so we'd have to get on the stick and start that --those enquiries moving. MR.MARKLE:Yeah,Mr.Anderson over at..... MR.HUTTRER:(Indiscernible)the military, but.... MR.MARKLE:.....it was Anderson at DGGS was working with us on that.I can't remember exactly how they had it set up,but we were going to try and fund 'em,but federal people wouldn't let us use our money for it. MS.DeJONG:Did you say DGGS or U.S.G.S.? R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7513 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 see ne a en¥ ! -35- MR.MARKLE:DGGS.Anderson over there in your mapping. MR.REEDER:Don --this is John.Are you sure that wasn't the NASA? MR.MARKLE:I don't know who it was. MR.REEDER:Because it sounds like the things you were naming off as a typical NASA...... MR.MARKLE:Yeah. MR.REEDER:.....high altitude type..... MS.DeJONG:This is..... . MR.MARKLE:They were going to do it ona training mission.--you know -rather than as a normal thing, and they were going to base the plane in town. MR.REEDER:I'11 make one general comment about getting the air photos out in the Aleutians,is that with respect to the government,like NASA,with a high U-2,and so forth,I really think the approach to take is to try both;i.e. federal means,like through NASA,as well as possibly lower altitude means through private.Try both,and then with the hopes that something will come out of it. MS.DeJONG:This is Patti.Let me interrupt just a moment,please.You and I had talked about the possibility of U.S.G.S even participating.We had heard from some of the air photo people that they may be interested in buying such air photos once they're taken.Have you heard R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE TOT S09 w.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7513 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 eyo weeteeee eee deee -36- anything of that?I address this to Jim. MR.RIEHLE:Well,this is Jim Riehle.I'm not aware of any such program,Patti.It may have been topographic division,too,though. MR.MOTYKA:This is Motyka again.Our -- yeah,it's probably the topographic division.North Pacific Aerial Surveys already has a fair amount of coverage on the peninsula,and they've covered Adak,and that film has been sold to the U.S.G.S.topo.branches.Some --they lost some- place,but hopefully they'll track it down.It was flown about three years ago.As an outfit,I've had experience with North Pacific Aerial Survey,and they're pretty good.And I think there's one other local office that does work.One recommen- dation I made to John,and I'll just pass it along here,is to -4 if you're going to do an RFP,do it such that --give them the flexibility to fly it when they can;have somebody based out of Dutch Harbor that's calling --calling in,and they can have their Lear jet,which they usually use for their medium altitude flights,ready to go,and within a couple of hours it would be out there,and catchit --you know --most of the Chain. MR.REEDER:This is John.I want to make a comment here.With respect to the U.S.G.S.buying air photos, I did talk to the topo.group some time ago,and apparently they don't have money to do that now,but any photo coverage that is obtained out there,they're definitely interested in it, R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 10T S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7819 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 ¥ 37- and the chances are very good they eventually will get money to buy it. MS.DeJONG:The reason I bring that up is any money that we can get from other entities will be money that we can spend on the drilling program,and we expect to need it. Another.... MR.REEDER:Yeah,but the problem..... MS.DeJONG::....another..... MR.REEDER:.....the problem there is that they don't want to commit money now. MS.DeJONG:Yeah,that's understandable. We'll have to pursue that.John and I went out to talk to North Pacific Aerial Photo people,and I think they no longer have the Lear jet.They may have to charter one for the purpose --it was outfitted specially. MR.HUTTRER:Let's move along now.I think we have fairly well exhausted that subject.But it's been educational.JI hope you appreciate when you have a low level of knowledge of the local on-goings that the growth --learning curve gets pretty steep,and it's always interesting to us to come in and hear all these comments.So,even if you have a trivial comment,it'd be very welcome. The second item to be discussed relates to environmental, permitting,and land matters.And Wayne had started,Vince had addressed it to a certain extent.Dwight Carey,at the end of R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 =38- the table in the blue shirt,is in charge of environmental Matters for Republic,and we anticipated in this proposal that he would coordinate closely with Dames «&Moore personnel under Paul Neff's guidance,or Steve Grabacki's guidance over here, to learn what must be learned about the environment,about permitting,and about land.I wonder if I can solicit a little bit more explicit description of the land situation,the land status.I think we can start off with this map that Patti put on the wall,and perhaps for those of us that aren't familiar with some of the symbols on there,somebody might feel qualified in standing up and explaining where we stand at the moment. MR.LEWIS:I don't feel qualified,but I'll do it.I'm Wayne Lewis.Let's see,I think this is a map prepared by the Alaska Power Authority that delineates the -- the ownership to date by the Ounalashka Village Corporation as to the surface interests,and the Aleut Corporation as to the subsurface interests.These hashed marks show what land is actually owned today.I might say that in the Aleut Region we got at the head of the line for a change,and we have thirteen village corporations which today have title to 90% of the land they've selected under the Claims Act.In turn,the Aleut Corporation,as subsurface owner,except where the villages are in a wildlife refuge,own the subsurface interests to that same land,and also actually have title.If you know R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 apr - 39- anything about the Claims Act,that's kind of a nice position to be in,because many villages and regions do not yet own their land,and it's sort of a cumbersome process to deal with 'em because they're going to but they don't quite. We --there are some myths surrounding land ownership under the Claims Act,the first one of which is it often is confused with the stock ownership by individual Alaska Natives, and I've heard this repeatedly.Vince ran into it when they sold a piece of property down in Unalaska.He was lectured by two newspapers that they couldn't do that for twenty years. That's not true.The land is simply owned as an asset by the corporation,and can be dealt with as real estate.That's as far as the surface interests goes.That's also true of the subsurface interests. By way of background,the Aleut Corporation has a standing mineral lease with Resource Associates of Alaska on all of our subsurface holdings,and this is the --almost the fourth year of a five-year..lease with them.It excludes geothermal, sand and gravel,and oil and gas,but other hard rock minerals are in that.Resource Associates has done some geologic work out here that might be of interest --I don't know.And they're easy to deal with. MR.+:This is Hettrer.Wayne,I see a lot of unhashered(sic)land,particularly at the heads of Makushin Valley,Driftwood Valley,in the vicinity of the R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 10f SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-6843 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 fumaroles.Is that land that has not been selected?Is that -40- still in the federal domain?Where does that lie? MR.LEWIS:Let me make a very important distinction between the word "selection"and "ownership".What you're seeing on the map in the hashered(sic)areas is owned by the village corporation and the regional corporation.It is a severed estate situation in which we are the mineral or subsurface owners,and the village is the surface owner --the village corporation.Under Section 14(h)(8),a relatively | obscure::.section of the Claims Act,but very important to the Aleut Corporation,we have selected all of Unalaska Island, all of Umnak Island,all of the western hemisphere,basically. And we wanted to make the Louisiana Purchase kind of pale by comparison,so anyway,we --these lands --all this comes as a rude surprise,apparently,to the Fish &Wildlife Service who thinks they have something to do with them under the Alaska Lands Bill,passed in December of 1981 - where am I --'80.-- not too long ago.We selected all of Unalaska Island,and really all of the lands ever set aside under the Claims Act, and we did it because there were so many uncertanties when that selection was required to be filed,including the impending lands bill,and a number of other issues,one of which was how much we ever had coming under that -under that section.There were a lot of variables that hadn't been resolved then,and it was very important to the Aleut Corporation,because it's the R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 19007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 EDITOR'S NOTE PAGE NUMBERING ERROR -TRANSCRIPT CORRECT PAGES 41 -49 ° -50- only instance,unlike many other regions,in which we will own not only the subsurface interests by the surface interests. So,under 14(h)(8)we have selected an awful lot of land.We have,therefore,effectively an option on a lot of this land, Now,the - and until some other issues have resolved,we'll retain that option.The Fish &Wildlife Service,I think,while this RFP was out,contended that they had something to do with this land on many occasions,and I understand that.They just haven't figured out that we trumped tem back in 1978,in essence. MR.HUTTRER I would like to ask a question.With whom,then,would Republic be dealing in order to get the right to work on the resource or cross the land?Are we dealing with the Aleuts,or are we dealing with the Fish &Wildlife,both, neither? MR.LEWIS:Well,can we go off the record here? The answer to that really is it's one of those limbo situations in 'which it's been selected.but not owned by the Aleut Corporation.I think the Fish &Wildlife Service notwithstanding their hoped for position --and it really doesn't have anything to do with it --the Bureau of Land Management does,because it's still federal land,selected by a regional corporation. Now,I understand the problems you bump into when you go over to them and they send you back to us,and so I don't know the answer.Today I would say a combination of the Bureau of Land Management and the Aleut Corporation, R &R COURT REPORTERS 81ON STREET.SUITE 10t SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -51- MR.HUTTRER:Would you assume,then,that we will have to obtain permits such as legal as they may be, whatever binding force they may-have,from both BLM and the Aleuts?Is that what we would do to be safe?Actually,I have to clarify the situation.Republic has no interest in the resource.Wewill not own the resource.We are not trying to make any money on the resource.We're merely developing. However,we have been asked to obtain the permits,and I'm trying to get a little bit of help as to what the --the method is going to be for us to actually obtain those pieces of paper that are nessary for us to do our work as a contractor.So,I don't want to confuse anybody and let them think that we're interested in obtaining the resource,.because we're not. MR.LEWIS:Well,it may be easier for you to do that than to get the answer to your questions.The answer really has to be a combination of BLM and the Aleut Corporation because the theory under which we selected all of these lands is that until someone could tell us more about how much we had coming,we would naturally preserve all of our options and select it all.And frankly,the --what we will do is we have approximately 55,000 acres coming under Section 14(h)(8).There are a number of competitors for this land.By that I mean other things which may cause us to select --use a portion of that,burn a portion of that 55,000 or so acres.This is one of the top contenders,that if someone can tell us as a result of R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.IRD AVENUE 19007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 +277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -52- this drilling program what lands in here are importantly, naturally we would select --if it's 10,000 or 15,000 or whatever. | MS.DeJONG:Could I interrupt just a moment, Wayne? MR.LEWIS:Sure, MS.DeJONG:Has any other regional corporation overselected,then,the land that is in white on the map? MR.LEWIS:No,there's no other region that can go shopping in the Aleut regions.Well,Cook Inlet not withstanding on --on the - -well,yeah,they.... MR.REEDER:But that was on --that was ona federal..... MR.LEWIS:Sort of a William the Conqueror mentality at work.They want to get everywhere in Alaska. But,yeah,just up there on the federal installation,but not --so,no,not --but not in here. MR.NEFF:This is Paul Neff.Wayne,don't we have a situation here on the volcano similar to Arch Rock? I mean,isn't that --isn't that in fact all part of the refuge system? MR.LEWIS:No.No,it isn't.What he's referring to is a --is an area here which we also have selected,down here on the southern portion of Umaknak (ph) Island.No,that --the Fish &Wildlife Service retained -- . R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE277-0872 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 53- well,this all used to be wildlife refuge land.The entire Aleutian Chain,going back to 1913 was designated as a refuge. And over time pieces of that refuge have been dropped.One of the places that was dropped --as I contend,it's the only wildlife refuge I've ever heard of that's hosted three atomic bombs in a world war.But all of Unalaska Island has been dropped from the refuge,except for a small remnant right here, and that's what you're dealing with,Paul,and I'm dealing with --but this was not.Now,under the Alaska Lands Bill, it says in effect that all of the lands that had been set aside for Native selections but were not selected fall into the refuge --back into the refuge.Okay.They have a small problem with that,and that is that we selected 'em back in '78 under 14(h)(8).So,none of these.lands automatically go back into the refuge until we get done with 'em. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Indeed,Wayne,were they set aside for Native selections? MR.LEWIS:'Yes,they were.All of Umnak and Unalaska Islands were set aside for a combination of village selections and deficiency withdrawals. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Okay.And am I right that Aleut didn't get a deficiency selection,a six --they didn't get a six.... MR.LEWIS:Well,the Aleut Corporation didn't, but it exercised its 14(h)(8)selections there. R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7918 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -54- MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Got you.What is your overall 14(h)(8)selections? MR.LEWIS:About 55,000 acres. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:That's the entitlement? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:What was your selection? MR.LEWIS:Half a billion.I don't know.As far as the eye can see. MS.DeJONG;I have another question for Wayne. When we spoke before,it sounded as though Fish &Game has not yet accepted what seems very logical as you present jit. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Fish &Game,or Fish &. Wildlife Service? MR.LEWIS:Fish &Wildlife Service. MS.DeJONG:Fish &Wildlife,federal. MR.LEWIS:Right. MS.DeJONG:Yeah.Is that a correct statement? MR.LEWIS:Well,it probably is. MS.DeJONG:So there may be some convincing to be done? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:I think you'll be dealing with BLM rather than Fish &Wildlife. MS.DeJONG:That's what we'd prefer. MR.LEWIS:Yeah.Well,I think there's --they haven't done their homework. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:They may take the position R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 government,be it a private individual,be it the State.There -45- (Inaudible,away from mike). MR.LEWIS:Well,they'd still have to do something about getting --dislodging us,then. | MR.CAREY:Can we ask - make --people make sure they try and speak in a microphone?It makes the conversation very much more difficult,but unfortunately,necessary. MR.HUTTRER Dwight,do you have any questions? MR.CAREY:Well,I was --I was going to present a fable.If this were down in the lower states there,where at least most of us are familiar to working with,things would be rather straight forward,to the degree that they can be when you're working with the federal government.There would be one entity whose --who owned the subsurface rights,the geothermal resource.That entity would be identifiable,be it the federal may in fact be a different organization who would own the surface rights.There are some lands in the geysers area in northern California which are leased by the federal government -- the geothermal rights are leased by the federal government under the 1916 Homestead Act,raising --Homestead Raising Act,which separates the mineral resource from the surface - surface rights,where the federal government has the ability to lease, but you must come to some sort of terms with the landowner as far as access is concerned,although the mineral estate is the dominant estate.In this situation here,it is obviously not R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SOS W.BRO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8843 272-7818 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -56- anywhere near as straight forward as it might be considered down where we are used to,at least,working.And what I foresee is the potential --and I may be --may be just trying to bring up problems that don't exist,but I think the big --the big concern in my mind if anybody is --the question is,is anyone in fact going to be opposed to the operation?If there is someone who is --if no-one is going to be opposed to the Operation,then it maybe is not that critical at this point in time to decide who in fact does own the resource,who in fact does have the ultimate responsibility.But if in part of this difference of opinion between the Fish &Wildlife Service and the Native corporation we've got a situation where they would just as soon not have anything happen,does that in fact then present us with a problem that can not be overcome in the short term?Because what in fact we are talking about is a short term situation.Things have to get organized before the summer field season,or you lose a sommer field season. MS.DeJONG:|This is Patti again.One thing I hope we can do in this Phase la.work is to clarify whether Fish &--is it Wildlife? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Fish &Wildlife Service. MS.DeJONG:Whether Fish &Wildlife actually has any say in the matter.We don't expect any difficulty from BLM or from the Aleut Corporation,but Fish &Wildlife may be difficult. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -57- MR.CAREY:May I ask Wayne another question,then? I understand your option's still to be exercised.Are those options exercisable at your option,as opposed to someone else's option? MR.LEWIS:This is Wayne.So far. MR.CAREY:Okay.So that you do have,in fact, the decision should this project prove there to be a reasonable resource --you have every intent to probably,in fact,go ahead and exercise those options? MR.LEWIS:Sure. MR.CAREY:Okay. MR.LEWIS:Yes,we do. . MR.MARKLE:This is Don Markle.When we were dealing on the federal level with this,the land steward for the federal government is the BLM,and the BLM will consult with Fish &Wildlife Service.But Fish &Wildlife Service will not issue any permits.They .do not have any jurisdiction to issue that.They only have cause to comment.And for that reason up here,and especially with the situation in Washington today, I don't think you'll have a major problem. MS.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Yeah,this is Hedderly-Smith. I'll agree with that.If this land is withdrawn for Native selection,and was selected,and has not yet been conveyed, BLM will have management authority over it,and they'll be Managing it with the Aleut Corporation's interests in mind. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-6543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -58- So,a letter of concurrence from Aleut should --should result in the proper permitting from BLM so that.... MR.CAREY:fIs.... MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:....the public doesn't get sued for trespass. MR.CAREY:.....okay,this is --this is Dwight Carey again.That talk --that deals with the surface,and I really don't have that much problem,I think,with the subsurface But were we,in fact,going back down to California or any other states that Republic operates in the western United States, subsurface is another matter.We could in fact go through to the point of temperature gradient holes on any federal land without any problem.But once you get to the point of drilling a deep well,the federal government's going to look askance if they still consider it to be their subsurface resourse. MS.DeJONG:Dwight..... MR.CAREY:.Yeah. MS.DeJONG:-...the Aleut Corporation has selected subsurface as well.Regional corporation gets.... MR.CAREY:Okay. MS.DeJONG:.....subsurface as well as surface estate. MR.CAREY:Very good. MR.MARKLE:(Inaudible,away from mike)They get everything when they get(ph)it,so there's nothing reserved. R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -59- MR.CAREY:Yeah,correct,I understand, MR.LEWIS:All the way to the caramel center of the earth. MR.HUTTRER:We hope that's what's tn there.It'd be nice.This is Hettrer again.I would like to ask what may be an obvious question--question with an obvious answer.Can you think of any major environmental effects that will cause an uproar?Obviously,youtve brought up the question of fish in Makushin Valley.And one of the aspects that we Have been batting around with regard to the testing of the deep wells has to do with the disposal of fluids.If we're fortunate,and we tap.this resource and it's a dry steam resource,we have no problems,and we can just vent relatively water-free vapors to the sky.However,the odds are greater that you'll be running into a wet resource,and there will be some waters to dispose of. My question is,then,having not been at Unalaska,I ask those of you who have been at Unlaskaif we drill holes in the vicinity of fumarole fields six or seven --not six,six is up top --I beg your pardon --two or three --is there an area on to which you could dispose of fluids --geothermal fluids without endangering wildlife,or causing an uproar from local residents? MR.TUTIAKOFF:'What's in it?This is Tutiakoff. What's in the water that you.... MR.HETTRER:Well,let's.... MR.TUTIAKOFF:.....want to try and get rid of.... R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7915 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 an soge cone -60- MR.HUTTRER:.....let's assume..... MR.TUTIAKOFF:......that's going to do something in? MR.HETTRER:....sure,it's a-very good question as to what's in it,and of course,the composition of the waters can be anywhere from potable to saline,having sodium chloride, salts,table salt,calcium chloride;they can contain certain degrees of Arsenic,Antimony and Bismuth.There are noxious elements that sometimes can be found in the --in the water. I think Roman could probably speak to it in some detail.At the same time,a lot of these minerals --these elements might not travel very far.They might be disposed of in areas where the drainage was --was peripheral to local or even to minor streams.$0,we need to get a feel for how sensitive,how delicate is the environment in which we're working. MR.TUTIAKOFF:This is Tutiakoff.I would --I would guess that there are some of these elements you're talking about in that stream already. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:There are. MR.TUTIAKOFF:Okay.But to dump more into there,I don't know what's going to happen.I'm sure that somebody's going to jump up and start screaming.The worst case is what you --we have to think about --what's going to happen in the --on the worst case,the stuff you're pumping out;where you're going to --what's going to happen,where R &R COURT REPORTERS S1ON STREET,SUITE 101 309 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 761- it's going to go.The drain-off from that area is clay.It's going to run right down probably a couple --maybe a foot,and it's going to follow that underwater river right back into the stream. ) MR.HUTTRER:Now,are we talking about heavily fished streams?Are people actually making a subsistence living in Makushin Valley,or Glacier Valley,or Driftwood.... MR.TUTIAKOFF:In Makushin Valley it's a heavily subsistence fished area,and also commerciallyin: this whole bay here.Commercially fishing outside of Reese Bay,and some in Driftwood --these three streams here are the largest pink salmon streams;this one right here is the largest red salmon producing stream and lake.I just don't know where you're going to put it,if you're going to put it anywhere, I really don't. MR.HUTTRER:Roman,would you have any comments on the constituents of some of the water from your studies? MR.MOTYKA:Roman here.All the waters we've sampled so far --none of the waters we've sampled so far looked like they're deep waters.We're sampling,as far as we can tell,surface waters that are circulating at fairly shallow depths and being heated by condensation of steam and volcanic gasses.So,I can't tell you what you have at depths.And if you're going to hit chloride waters,then you'll probably hit whatever problems you normally associate with alkali chloride R&R COURT REPORTERS S10 N STREET,SUITE 101 S509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-6343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 62- type waters. MR.REEDER:Jerry,this is John Reeder.I have a question.Are you speaking in terms of getting rid of waste water just by dumping it on the surface?I mean.... MR.HUTTRER:Well,you have only two alternatives, You can either dump it on the surface,or you can reinject it. To reinject requires a well,which is --requires money in turn, and time.So,yes,we have two alternatives.It's not practical to pipe it anywhere.It's --it's either dump it on the surface or put it in an evaporation pond,which I don't think is very likely given the ambient humidity there,or --and the quantities of water that may be involved in atest.Or,reinject.Those are the three alternatives,and we're going to have to see what we have to live with..Financially,dollar-wise,we are not budgeted at this stage for an injection well.So..... MR.MARKLE:Jerry,let me tell you our experience on Pilgrim Springs.The Environmental Conservation people did allow us to just surface aump the water into the existing hot spring stream.But in that case we were dealing with a little bit different situation.We were --you know --we did have a hot spring already in the stream,and we were dumping it into the same spring.And we didn't have nearly as fragile a fishing environment or --you know --it wasn't commercially active. Another thing that you might run into while you're out there is that it is a nesting area for peregrine falcons.And I R&R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -63- don't know how --how heavily that will be done.You'll probably be drilling above their nesting area.They only nest so high. MR.HUTTRER:Where is their area?Excuse me. MR.MARKLE:Well,I mean the whole ar- --you know --they have 'em designated for the island.I don't know if anybody's ever --I don't think anybody's ever been out there and done anything with it.I don't think it's--I don't think it's going to be a major problem.I know you're all kind of blinking your eyes about it,but we --we've --we've done some work with Danny Brim(ph)and some of the people who have a lot to do with that,and they didn't think it was a significant problem because you'd probably be way up above where the falcons were. MR.HUTTRER:'That's a valid comment. MR.NICHOLS:Clay Nichols,USDOE.I'd suggest you probably ought to break out your planning into what you're going to do in disposal during the test phase,when.you might have manageable volumes that you can get rid of through some temporary expediency versus long term production,and you've also got to face the issue of whether your reservoir can support continuous depletion versus reinjection too for pressure maintenance. MR.HUTTRER:Absolutely.Well,at this point I'm most concerned with the testing phase.And even now I'm R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -64- speaking two years from now,because I don't anticipate producing anything from the thermal gradient wells.The thermal gradient wells,as you recall,were Phase 2 of the first effort, which would go on this summer.Those will be 2,000 foot wells. It's possible they might produce something in the way of a thermal liquid.We don't anticipate that.We don't really even want it.However,my --my thinking goes further towards 1983,when we will be drilling a deep well,and we'll have to do something,one way or another. MR.NICHOLS:I can speak from personal experience, the cost --the parasitic costs of pond lining,and disposal on any kind of scale during long term testing that way is just really impractical.And you might look at other drainages besides the ones that are active fisheries,the Central American sort of expedient for disposal. | MR.HUTTRER The logistical constraints of bringing in lined ponds and so forth are staggering.It's just not practical.It'd run the cost of the whole project. MR.NICHOLS:But the theory amongst the reservoir engineers is growing very rapidly that we do have to worry about the fluid depletion in most fracture dominated... reservoir systems - -long term --that's something you've got to worry about,is the cost of that reinjection. MR.HUTTRER:Well,we run into that all the time in our operations,both in the geysers andImperial Valley,and R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -65- we're very --very much attuned to the need hoth for reseryoir pressure maintenance,and for fluid replacement, MR,REEDER:Jerry,this is John again.How much water do you think would be involved on initial phases?| Basically this would be waste water from pump tests? MR.HUTTRER I =-yeah,Corky Isselhardt.,..- MR.ISSELHARDT:Yeah,this is Isselhardt.On the initial --on the initial deep test,we're planning a thirty day long term test.That would give us very quantitativedata in terms of reservoir capabilities.However,if we were to test the well while the rig is still on location,what we call our -just a two or three day test into the drilling sump, we --we can limit the amount of fluid,just measure pressure and temperature,and ---at the wellhead,and so on,But ina normal test we would flow at about 10,000 barrelsa day minimum to see what the capabilities are.Onalong term test of thirty days we'd run the well at approximately three different rates.We may start out --assuming the well's capable of: large scale production,we might start out at 10,000 barrels a day,and after ten days or thereabouts up the flow rate toa 15 or 20,000,and if the well still indicates that it's capable of higher production rates,even for a short time, perhaps even up the rate to 30 or 40,000 barrels a day, depending on what the --what the potential of the well shows, R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 24 25 -66= However,if we do have a disposal problem,and it appears that may be the case,we can also run it a two or three day test, and get an indication immediately whether this well really appears to be capable of large scale production.And perhaps even run a five or may day test into a --into the drilling pit, which would -could be lined,and so on.It would probably have to be,based on what I'm hearing.But you're - that's true;you're going to end up with the ultimate disposal problem. But if you can keep it in the pit for a month or two.--if we find a well that will produce at,say,40,000 barrels a day or even 20,000 barrels a day it has that kind of potential -- we'll be able to determine that in a relatively short term -- pond the water,and then I'm sure if that's the case we'll be able to find the funding to drill an injection well,in which case we'd move the well over,drill the injection well while the rig is still out there...... | MR.REEDER:Yeah,Corky,I.... MR.ISSELHARDT:..,...and pump it in. MR.REEDER:....maybe one solution to this -- for example,around fumarole field #one,or what I call fumarole field #one,there are large pyroclastic flows.And it seems like,for example,if the deep drilling was in that vicinity you could make ponds on those flow surfaces.I suspect the permeabilities would be fairly good in those flows,although I'm not sure that question.And just through a filtering process R &R COURT REPORTERS @!0ON STREET,SUITE 101 509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 ee eee ee ee ce eee ce ee ee ee ee coe ee ee --eee -67- you might be able to just let the stuff just naturally infiltrate in.That doesn't sound good? MR.ISSELHARDT:JI don't think that's going to cut it.There's no way. MR.MARKLE:How about --this is Markle.Is there a possibility of using your production wells with some type of plug to reinject into some pyroclastics down a couple hundred feet,or something?I don't know.... MR.ISSELHARDT:It's conceivable that we could do that,although we try to reinject below,say,2,500 feet minimal to keep out of the ground waters --any ground waters. And this --this area,from what I read to date,appears to have just incredible permeability in the near surface,and I don't -- we don't know how deep that extends,but certainly if we're up at the --I don't know --three or four thousand foot level, and the streams are several thousand feet below us.We can not afford to inject at four or five hundred feet,or a thousand feet or something.We're going to have to go to perhaps three --4 three thousand,thirty-five hundred,forty-five hundred feet to make sure that that fluid doesn't come out.Now,the.other -- the other alternative is --it depends on what kind of fluid we encounter.In Dixie Valley,Nevada,the BLM has allowed Sometco(ph)to dump their fluid right into the playa.And in fact,they --one of the farmers even used it to water his field, it's so fresh.It's only 2,000 ppm's.So,we may be making a R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-78tS ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -68- mountain out of a molehill.We really have to wait and see what the quality of --of the resource is.If it's dry steam, as Jerry has said,there's no problem.But if we're successful, I don't think there's any problem getting the money to drill an injection well and finding an injection zone.That's usually not a problem. MS.DeJONG:I just have a quick question for Don and Corky.Were you thinking of possibly concentric well casings,and pumping back in a different --that's not state of the art,or...... MR.MARKLE:No,I'd just plug it and perforate above the playa(ph)and reinject out of your test. MR.ISSELHARDT:Well,you could do that.You could --this is Isslehardt again.You can set a --you can set a temporary bridge plug,and lay a little cement on top of it, and reinject your fluid back in after you tested the pit,or in many instances we'll just reinject back into the reservoir. long as you're putting back the same type of fluids you've removed,there's usually no damage,and especially in the --in a fractured reservoir.And once we filter out the --any clay or other particles that may be in the sump. MR.ANSARI:I have a suggestion.This is Jamal Ansari from the University of Alaska,Fairbanks.There are only a few (Indiscernible)chemicals that are hazardous in the water. You can chemically treat the water,at least for the testing R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8843 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -69- period,and just precipitate(ph)those hazardous chemicals.And when you have developed the (Indiscernible)later on,you can - you can develop an injection well,or a disposal problem can be solved later. MR.ISSELHARDT:This is Isselhardtagain.We've done some chemical treating in the Imperial Valley,and it tends to be not only expensive,but it also tends to be very equipment intensive,and you end up having to haul large quantities of filters and reactor tanks,and so on,up to give the chemical process --take time --enough time to complete the actions(ph).I would --I would still say that if we find anything that's worthwhile that the funds will be forthcoming to drill an injection well,and that once the injection well is drilled,we can move into a thirty-day test immediately upon laying line,and just conduct a long-term test into the injection well. MR.HUTTRER -I'd like --unless we have some other comments,I'd like to move along.It's been very educational,again. MR.CAREY:Yeah,I have one,Jerry.This is Dwight Carey.Well,not really a comment,but again,a question.We've sort of --in the initial comments we sort of dealt with the question of --of surface access and resource access,but I don't think we really covered two other major concerns that someone might have,those being the --the R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -70- environmental,regulatory type standards or permits,or whatever else you might call them;and secondly,I know the State of Alaska is in the process of trying to develop their own drilling standards.But that is --that is the third area of which may in fact be of concern here.There's two questions.One is obtaining whatever approvals are necessary,but the other is to Meet and/or exceed whatever standards are necessary that the State would --that it would have.Or,if in fact,we're going to have to play the game according to the rules of the federal government and their regulatory process. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Okay,I'll address that.I am the State of Alaska who's trying to adopt some drilling standards.And essentially,I was hoping you people would adopt some good drilling standards for me.And hopefully,I --we will do that later this week.The permitting maze you're going to run,primarily --the Department of Natural Resources is going to be concerned about conservation of geothermal resources,and about a potential pollution of other water resources.We wouldn't let you reinject that stuff 200 feet down.And,John, we won't let 'em --won't let it sink in,either. MR.CAREY:The same battle(ph)I have to do every time. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Yeah,essentially,we're just trying to conserve the water resources,be it hot or cool,or what-not.On the other hand,the Department of Environmental R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -J1- Conservation --you're certainly going to need a waste-water discharge permit from them,and that's what we've been talking about.You're probably going to need an NPDES permit from'the EPA.They'll probably let DEC issue that to you,or they'll give you.... MR.HUTTRER:Can we clarify those acronyms? MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:I can't remember what the NPDES is. MR.CAREY:The NPDES is National Pollution Discharge Elimination System,but only if you're discharging to waters.In,let's say,most --most of our operations we never obtain an NPDES because we,in fact,never discharge into a surface stream or stream channel,because it's all going into a pit,and then these are being hauled to a certified waste disposal site,or injected back into a non-potable aquifer. So,an NPDES permit is something we normally don't obtain.In this case we may in fact specifically obtain one because of the desire to discharge if in fact the waters prove to be of a quality that we can --we can do that with. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Okay,let me gd a little bit further.Your biggest permitting hurdle I see is going to be your anadromous fish protection permit from the Alaskan Department of Fish &Game.And they're going to want to review every step of your operation all the way through.You're basically going to be dealing in an area where there's salmon R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE TOT S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W,3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -72- fisheries.You were talking about how sensitive the environ- mental climate is.I think you'll find that the political climate is much,much more sensitive than the environmental climate.We just --we're in the process of routing a mine road in southeast Alaska up an illogical area because there's a creek there that's got 100,000 pink salmon in it,not --not withstanding the fact that no-one in southeast Alaska fishes for pink salmon.The Alaska Fishermen's Association,or whatever, came out just adamantly opposed to one route,and what-not.I see the fish as being your biggest problem,and you're going to have to take whatever measures are necessary to mitigate the impact on it.A lot of that can be done with timing.I mean, you just --you simply aren't going to be screwing up that creek in the middle of July at all,and maybe in December it's not going to be so much of a problem.I would see if we're talking about fluids,you're going to want to retain those fluids,figure out what's in them,and then go for the permitting to discharge it or do whatever you have to do with it.I doubt that you could plan a thirty-day test with your initial thing(ph)because --I mean,the other agencies simply aren't going to give you permits until they know what it is you plan on dumping. MR.CAREY:That's always a problem. MR.ISSELHARDT:Yeah,this is Isselhardt again. I think basically these are the kinds of problems that we've R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 10?309 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -73- faced many times before,and they're more --more or less standard to the type of operations we've donducted in the past. It's those --those kinds of environmental questions and problems that we dealt with before,and I think it looks -- sounds to me like it's the same type of thing we've dealt in Lake County(ph)in California,and several other places.And it certainly seems that we can handle them;it's just a matter of the timing and the amount of time required.I think maybe we ought to try and move on if we can. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Well,perhaps Dwight can get with Dave after --or during a break during the week here,and get a little more insight as to the status of some of these permits,and where to go to find out exactly who's doing what and to whom. MR.MARKLE:Jerry,I'd --this is Don Markle -- I'd submit that you're going to be dealing with BLM rather than the State,since there has been no tentative approval on transfer yet,and this will be a BLM-run operation,rather than a State-run operation.Until there's some type of approval of those land transfers,they will probably be federal. MR.HEDDERLY-SMITH:Let me address that a little bit.DEC is still concerned with water quality throughout the State,Fish &Game with fish and game throughout the State, and in their wisdom the Legislature has given the Department of Natural Resources the respsonsibility for conserving geothermal R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-6543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -74 resources throughout the State on State,federal,or priyate lands.I'm sure there will be some interaction with.BLM, though,and with Aleut. MR.MARKLE:As [I say,they"ll probably run the -- they"1ll probably run the ball for you,BLM will,'cause they'll have all those hearings. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:That sure is a pleasant thought. MR.CAREY:This is Dwight Carey.I'll just make one little summary remark,and then maybe just go ahead and move on.It's primarily that Republic has in all its own operations and all the operations it runs with a contractor,had environmental protection as one of its concerns foremost in mind all the way along.That's why::we have four or five environmental people on our staff back in Santa Fe Springs.In all our operations we attempt to run them as = consider our- ¥° selves a neighbor to all those that are near and far,and [I thinkwe are going to need help from a lot of people to make sure our good intentions are in fact put into action,Because we are not used to working in Alaska and the specific conditions we see here.So,I'm going to personallyask for help from everyone I -- everyone I can get to help myself and my staff to do the job we want to do,and do it correctly.But you are the people who are going to have to help,because you understand the specifics of the area a lot Better than we.We,of course, R&R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S309 Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -75- understand the geothermal operations,and between the two groups of us I think we can do a good job of making certain that whatever operations we end up undertaking do not in fact cause any significant impairment to the environment,be it the natural state or the environment that people have created on the island itself. MR.gUTTRER:With that expression of good will, we'll just let the can of worms lie,and attack it as we have to.It is a-can of worms,it looks like,and we anticipated that it would be,so we haven't learned that it's any better than we thought it would be.I suggest a couple of things. Number one,I'd like to go on to the subjectof geology.John Reeder has done a lot of work on the geologic aspects of Unalaska,and John has said that his remarks and his discussion are fairly lengthly.Those of you who really are not supremely interested in geology are certainly free to --to move around,or stretch,or.leave the room.However,I would like --there are many of us in here who are quite concerned with the geologic aspects of what John's done,and it's possible that we may break his talk into several different parts.It depends on the interest shown,and how much time is involved.I do want to get through as many of these topics as possible today,which I hope we can get.through all of them. A second comment is that I would like to take a lunch R &R COURT REPORTERS "B10N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -76- menu that I have and circulate it,and ask each of you,perhaps, to select a --something from this sandwich menu that I have. If that's acceptable,then I'd propose running it across the street and seeing if they can fill an order,and we'll pick that --I think Republic will buy you your lunch and pickles here today,or whatever you'd like.But is that --is that satisfactory with you? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:(Inaudible,away from mike) MR.HUTTRER:Okay.Well,with that in mind,I'd just as soon.--excuse me for a second. MR.CAREY:I was going to suggest maybe a five- minute break,maybe to do the --let people get..... MR.HUTTRER-Fine.Why don't we shut down the machine for a second. (OFF THE RECORD) (ON THE RECORD) MR.REEDER:.Okay,I'm going to go ahead and start.Basically,I've been working on Unalaska for the last three years,and it's been a pretty amazing,incredible project for me.And at this point I would like to give special thanks to a person who helped get this project started for me,although there are times I'd like to kill him,there are times when I have to admit that if it wasn't for him I probably would have never gotten started in Unlaska.And that's Don Markle. And what I'd like to do here is I have literally brought in R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101T SO9 W.SRD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 ¥ -, -77- a whole bunch of 1 to 50,000 maps covering the Unalaska area. Now,these are the original worksheets.They are fairly complete as they sit right now.They need to go through a lot of review.And I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty detail of what's on 'em.There's still a lot of analyses that need to be made,of course.The job is never done.But what I'd like to do right now is at least go through some of the publications that are coming out on Unalaska that relate to the technical aspects of things,just for the record.And then I'd like to go through some of the things which I'm planning to --to put in print within the next half year.Of course,this is just with respect to the work that I've been doing,and Roman Motyka will probably address some of his work with geochemistry of waters and gasses later. But first,with respect to the publications,is one is the "Hydrothermal Manifestations on Unakaska Island",which unfortunately hasn't been.published yet as an open file report, but as soon as DGGS gets its act together this will be published.Originally,this report was written about a year ago, and sort of documents some of the --in a very general fashion,some of the very initial generalizations on our findings down on Unalaska Island. Another publication is,quote,""Vapor-Dominated Hydrothermal Manifestations on Unalaska Island,and Their Geologic and Tectonic Setting",which is a paper presented in R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -78- Tokyo.It's in the abstracts,1981,IAVCEI Symposium on Arc Volcanism,in Tokyo and Hokone,Japan,August 28th- September 9th,1981.And this was a meeting that was sponsored by the Volcanological Society of Japan and the International Association of Colcanology and Chemistry of the Earth's Interior,1981.That's probably one of the most amazing meetings.I ever have gone to in my life.Another paper which is sort of a generalization type paper is entitled a "Geological and Engineering Studies for Geothermal Development on Unalaska Island".This is a paper which is co-authored with Michael Ekonomides(ph)of the University of Alaska and Don Markle with the Division of Power and Energy Development.And this publication was submitted to the International Conference on Geothermal Energy,which will be held in Florence this May. And then,last of all,is another short paper which is sort of a generalization again,which is "Initial Assessment of the Hydrothermal Resources of the Summer Bay Region on Unalaska Island,Alaska",which was published in the Geothermal Resource Council Transactions,Volume V,October,1981.It's an interesting paper,it's not one of the best.But Geothermal Resource Council publishes almost anything you give 'em,sort of what I've found. With respect to the maps,one of the things we want to do is to put out on open file report as much information as has R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3ROD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 ee ee eee eee -79=- been collected on Unalaska as we possibly can.And unfortunately I've been put under a lot more pressure to do this than what I thought would eventually happen when I started the project. I never dreamed that Republic Geothermal would be coming to Alaska and doing a major drilling project,but this is the way things happen.Anyway,with respect --I have brought a pile of maps here which most of 'em,not all of 'em,will probably be published as open file reports.These maps I will not let out of my sight,but Republic Geothermal is more than welcome to look at 'em,to reproduce 'em,or whatever.These maps are entitled,one,"Hydrothermal Surface Manifestations and Linear Features in the Rocks of the Northern Part of Unalaska Island". This is a map which Jim Riehle of the Geological Survey originally did a lot of the work on.And we'll probably include a short text,and probably do some --maybe even some statistical stuff with the lineation(ph)work. The next map is a "Reconnaissance Geology and Hydrothermal Surface Manifestations of the Northern Part of Unalaska Island”. This pretty much documents most of the field observations that were made,and contains a fair amount of detail in most places, but in other places you have large,blank regions. Another map is the "Unconsolidated Deposits and Geologically Recent Volcanic Rocks and Faults of the Northern Part of Unalaska Island".That map is probably one of the most interesting,I think,that I've come out with.Another map R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 x la pee na nn nt eo aae om ey tac 24 25 80- which is being produced is "Areas of Potential Hazard from Lava Flows,Pyroclastic Flows,Floods,and Tsunamis from Future Volcanic Eruptions in the Northern Part of Uanalaska Island". And I might make a note here that this is sort of a preliminary type map.We'll probably have someone like Gary from the University of Alaska will be doing more detailed work with respect to hazards in the future.There's plenty of room for improvement.Another map is the "Chemical Analyses of Major Constituents for Rocks from the Northern Part of Unalaska Island" and that probably will not be published as an open file report, but probably will eventually be included in a geologic report that'll be published years and years from now. And then the last map is a "Bouguer Gravity Anomaly Map of the Northern Part of Unalaska",which has some very interesting results from it.And that will probably be published either as an open file report,or it'll probably be published in a report that'll be done cooperatively with the University of Alaska, entitled "An Initial Geophysical and Geochemical Investigation of the Geothermal Energy Potential of the Northern Part of Unalaska".And I can give you a copy of these if you want 'em. And again,I'll repeat,this does not include some stuff which Roman Motyka or other people up in.our Fairbanks office has been working on.This is just some of the stuff which I have.And later on,you're more than welcome to look at these maps;that's the reason I brought them here. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 r >aaa 2 ee ee nth eee nt te wegen meee 8l-= Now,what I was thinking of doing was giving a little bit of a talk on the geology,and I --I didn't really plan anything formal,so you can interrupt any time you want.And also,I don't want to get drug-out too long,as far as the talk its concerned.I just wantedto address some very important points, or at least what I think is important with respect to the geothermal resource.So,I guess we'll go ahead and proceed. We'll start with the first slide,here. This really isn't part of my talk,but I just wanted to show you one of the old air photographs which are available on Unalaska Island.They're pretty hard to get ahold of.This is one of the 1950 photos,and with respect to some of the comments made earlier on topo.maps and air photographs,you can see with this one that there is a fair amount of cloud cover,and at the lower elevations you're pretty much losing it because of the exposure on the photograph. Ms.DeJONG:.(Inaudible,away from mike) MR.REEDER:I'm pretty sure that there's a date on the photo.It's a 1950 or '51 photo. MS.DeJONG:(Inaudible,away from mike) MR.REEDER:[I think this would be --I think this is late Fall,but I'm not sure. MR.HUTTRER-:Excuse me,where's the crater area? MR.REEDER:Yeah,I'm going to move up front here, and I'll answer you up there.Is this plugged in?I'm going to R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 309 W.3RO AVENUE $007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7815 . ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -82- try to point out the caldera here.The caldera of Makushin is right in here,and the main fumarole field,fumarole field #six is located right there. MS.DeJONG:Which way is north? MR.REEDER:On this photo,north is about that direction.These photos were taken at a - sort of an angle, although they are vertical photographs.And we use these photos a lot to --'cause we're trying to put it in some of the topography on the face(ph)map.You can see some of the fumarole fields at lower elevations on these things.Fumarole field #five is located right there.You can see the thaw area, and-springs.You can see the fumarole field #three on this one, and on the others,for example,you can see fumarole field #one and #two.You can't really recognize that they are fumarole fields,but after the fact,since you know they're. fumarole fields,you can look at them and you can see 'em. COURT REPORTER:Sir,you can attach that microphone,and you won't have to hold it. MR.REEDER:Okay,can someone - okay,go ahead and move it forward,yeah. MR.HUTTRER:May I ask a question first?You see the snow-free area at the bottom of the picture.It's sort of elongated,kind of north-south-ish,or northeast-southwest, right --well,that doesn't do any good. MR.REEDER:Are you talking about..... R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8843 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 83- MR.HUTTRER:No,up =>up there,'No,BP.Now, move your hand to the right,Further,further,further.Now, that entire dark color,that whole area in there.Is that <-is there reason for that being snow-free other than Being simply low elevation?Is it in the lee of the weather,or is it -- is it possible that there's some thermal feature that ts =. creating a large snow-free area?I think it appears to be higger than you'd expect just from that elevation change. MR.REEDER:Okay.#one,T don't Rave an answer to your question.But I would think that it's just basically low elevation in this region here. MR,|Where is.... MR.REEDER:This is a high ridge right in here. MR.HUTTRER::----.where"s Makushin Valley? MR.REEDER:Okay,now,the Glacier valley,which drains into Makushin Bay,is right in here,and it goes out this way.And the Makushin Valley,which drains into Broad Bay,is over this pass an down on the other side.And it would drain approximately in this direction here. MR.:Okay.And Driftwood Bay? MR.REEDER:Driftwood Bay would be approximately in this direction,off the air.photo by quite a few miles, MR.MOTYKA:Point out the Pakushin Cone,too, maybe. MR.ISSELHARDT:Is:that the ridge? R &R COURT REPORTERS B1ON STREET.SUITE 101 SOS W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.4LASKA 99501 -84- MR.REEDER:Pardon,Roman? MR.MOTYKA:Pakushin Cone, MR.REEDER:Pakushin? MR.MOTYKA:Pakushin. MR.REEDER:Yeah,Pakushin is right in here. MR.HUTTRER-?You can not see Sugarloaf from that picture,then,yet? MR.REEDER:No,you can not.It's off the picture MR.HUTTRER:All right.We're oriented,anyway, so east is --is virtually down,on this picture?Thank you. -MR.REEDER:Roughly.This is a slide that shows the generalized geology of the northern part of Unalaska Island. Of course,there's a U.S.G.S.report out by Drews et.al(ph), which contains a lot of valuable information with respect to what the regional geology is.This slide has been revised several times,and unfortunately,this is an older version. But basically in the Unalaska area --and I'll just make a few comments on what you have --you do have fairly recent volcanic, which have not been metamorphosed,and they're pretty much confined to the northeastern part of the northern part of Unalaska Island in this region right in here.And in general, they're basically basalts and andesites,a lot of breccia flows,pryoclastics,and lava flows,and somewhat,in general, very porous,relatively speaking,compared to the other rock that you see on the island. R &R COURT REPORTERS S10 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -85- You also have an older group of rocks on Unalaska which actually is not understood very well,as far as I'm concerned. Mainly they consist of,in this north --northern part of Unalaska Island,as metavolcanics.They have been metamorphosed to what you might call the green schist facies.They're very difficult rocks to work with,but you can get a rough idea of what they originally were like.They pretty much dominate most of the northern part of the island.Now,into these rocks have been intruded a lot of plutonic bodies,and one of the largest is the Captainss Bay pluton,which is located right here,and it's very close to the Unalaska community. You also have a lot of very small intrusive bodies occurring,such as in the Summer Bay region,where we have a hot spring,which has been noted as a circle here;small plutonic bodies in here.And you pretty much find these small bodies scattered throughout the metavolcanics.Quite a few of 'em occur within a region.very close to Makushin Volcano.It occurs in a region where we see a lot of our fumarole fields, which I call fumarole field one,two,three,and four,et cetera. I think that probably one of the most important things here to realize is that from a geothermal point of view it's, to me,quite significant that you have older rocks,such as these metavolcanics,and plutonic bodies --these intrusive volcanic rocks --so close in proximity to a recent volcanic center as R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 career ee ae ee eee wen ee ee 24 25 -86- Makushin.And of course,from a geothermal point of view where you're concerned about heat,this is going to be pretty darned significant. | What I need now is the overhead. MR.HUTTRER:Which of you have not had the Lunch sheet yet? MR.REEDER:.What I think I'll do now is just show you a couple of overlays with respect to maps,and emphasize another point from a point of view of faults,from the point of view of tectonics,and the significance this might have with the point of view of your geothermal resource.Then I'll make some general comments about how this does relate to geothermal,and then I might talk a little bit about some hazards which we recognize. This is -let me see how this works --is a map for the immediate Unalaska-Summer Bay region on the island. Unfortunately,this thing's-out of date,too.But I'm not going to worry that much about it.The Unalaska community is located right in here,Dutch Harbor's over in here,and the Summer Bay region is over in here,and this is where we have warm springs, at Summer Bay.And also,there are two sites where two shallow wells were drilled,which tap into a shallow artesian warm-water system. The thing which I want to emphasize here is --okay,let me back up a little bit.You can see plutonic bodies coming in R&R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-6943 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -87- here,gabbros,quartz monzediorite(ph)type rocks.And you can see the Captains Bay pluton located right down in this region in here,which is a very prominent feature. One of the:important things I want to show here,even though this does not contain qgwerything the way I'd like it to be as far as a final diagram --this thing's out of date --is that there's a very prominent orientation in the fracturing. For example,one of the most prominent faults that you can see on the island is located right in here,with a large normal fault striking about north 50 degrees west.It trends, actually,directly toward the hot spring at Summer Bay.There's been other faults recognized.You can see that there's a general trend to --to the northwest.In many cases these things are normal faults,but in a few cases we have recognized a horizontal strike-slip component,and in a few cases you see both vertical and horizontal on the same fault.Whether it appeared at the same time or what is the history,I don't know. But you see these things scattered throughout this region,such as these right up in here,this one in here,which is probably a little more recent.And then interestingly enough,every once in awhile you see something which is usually perpendicular to it.And this one here I'm interpreting both horizontal and vertical movement on this particular fault,and it may be more than just one fault.It may be a little more complex than what's being shown here.I don't show the location exact,either R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -88- But that's minor details I don't want to get into. What I'd like to do now is jump to the Makushin region,and show you what we see there.And I've got everything backwards, Situation normal.And I may not be able to show you everything, but I'll try.Basically,this is just a reproduction of a 1 to 50,000 map,except I don't have the slightest idea what the scale is projected,except that each block here.is one kilometer,to give you an idea,which is part of the old military grid system that they used.This is Makushin Volcano. We have the caldera in there as approximate as we can.Quite a bit of stuff shown here,but I'm going to have to explain things.#One,the sort of blue line that moves along here sort of shows the contact between the older rocks,which the U.S.G.S. people have called the Unalaska formation,and its plutonic bodies that are contained in it;versus that of the unmetamorphosed rocks of the more recent volcanics,which have been called Makushin volcanics,and they've got a few other names for some of the more recent volcanics that we have here. This is the line marking that boundary. What's interesting here is that we are seeing some faults trending through this region which I think has a lot of significance with respect to geothermal.One of the more prominent ones is that we do see a break which heads all the way down to the coast from the northern part of Makushin caldera. Along this thing is quite a few cinder cones.There have been R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 $09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -89- some lava flows that come from this thing,so most likely you have had some very recent volcanic activity;how recent,I don't know,but probably in the bracket of several thousand years And it appears that the cinder cones are a little off --are sort of off-set from the actual linear break that we see,which sort of suggests that maybe the linear feature we're seeing actually occurred after the cinder cones were formed.So,you probably have a series of dykes going through here,as well as actual active faulting.Whether this thing is actually connected and carries all the way through is a little hard to say,but we are seeing faults down near fumarole field two region which appears to carry through and have been recognized in the Shaisnikof(ph)region,Shaisnikof piver area very close to Captains Bay,over toward Dutch.Harbor.So,apprently we're seeing a feature which goes quite a distance. Some of these lines have been inferred from air photo- graphs,and --but we do have some field observations for these. Again,you see trends that are somewhat ina similar orientation, like this one in here,which isn't too far off from fumerole field one.You see another one --this one is inferred from air photographs,which goes right into Sugarloaf Cone,and you see 'em down in --in the Glacier Valley region,cutting across. In many cases it looks like they are normal faults,but I'm not convinced that you haven't had horizontal displacements as well.. - R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -90- Okay,you have other trends here,like this one right in here,which is at sort ofan odd egngle,and which I didn't criginally recognize until afterI looked at the region for quite awhile.And you also have one moving in this direction in here.And you see a parallel one,like this one in here. We're starting to see a reproduction;we're seeing it again and again and again,the same feature.What's interesting about some of these faults or featuresis that there appears to be some very recent volcanic activity that's related to that. For example,on the faults here,going to fumarole field two,if you go up on the sides,they seem to correlate with small cinder cones and flows or pyroclastic flows that have come off Makushin Volcano fairly recently;again,within the last couple thousand years.You see that again with this one,which is about north 20 degrees west.And it goes up --and you have a series of small cinder cones,very small,almost like explosion craters something like.four or five of 'em have been recognized --all lined up on this thing,up in here,with some flows coming off of 'em,mainly,I think,lava flows,but in some cases you just have pyroclastics. There's another very large feature,and I haven't shown it:: on this,and it's because this thing was printed at the last moment - is that we now recognize a feature which actually breaches the caldera edge,that goes through fumarole field six on the top of Makushin,goes down,aligns with this small flow R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE tO1 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7818 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 9950! -9l- here,which is one of my gravity stations,and actually follows all the way out this way.And you'll notice that if you follow this thing this way,although we haven't been able to extend it down this way,is that you see a lot of lava flows that have come from this region in here,and then it heads right into Pakushin Cone.So,basically what I'm getting at here is that we have a lot of north 45,north 50 degrees west features that look like normal faults. MR.CAREY:John,can I interrupt you for a second? Has everyone signed on the lunch list?Is everyone taken care of except you,right,John? MR.REEDER:I think I was taken care of.No? Can you do something for me? MR.CAREY:Yeah,we're doing it now. MS.DeJONG:Is there anything you don't like, John? MR.REEDER:.Thanks,Patti.I'll take anything. This one feature going this way,you'll note,is almost perpendicular to this feature in here,and then we have several which I'm interpreting as strike slip,although I don't have a verification for that,which are trending in this direction here,which is about north 10 degrees,20 degrees west,and another one which is about north 80 degrees east,in here.Some of these we can actually see in the field.This particular one here,for example --I'1l show you a picture of R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 309 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0873 277-8543 272-75tS ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 vena Came ee g n a n reeee e, 24 25 -92- that pretty soon - goes right into fumarole field one.In fact,it looks like fumarole field one is in part controlled by this fracture feature.I wish I could --had a complete map on this,but can't quite put this all together.This fracture in here goes right in to hot rock.This --it's -- well,anyway,there appears to be a correlation between a lot of these fractures and the surface manifestations which we are seeing.But more important is that it appears to be volcanic activity related to these fractures.And one thing which I'd like to state right now is that it looks like there's a window in the fumarole field itself where there has been no recent volcanic extrusion in the region within the volcanic field,and I think that's a very important point,and I'll get back to that.But right now,let's look at some slides.Can I get the projector back on?I don't know how to run these things.Jim,could we go to the next slide?I sort of forget what I put in for these things. Oh,okay,this is a view taken from Amaknak Island(sic) near the community of Unalaska.And you're looking at a cliff exposure of the --quote --"Unalaska formation".You do have some plutonic rocks,like right here at this little point.I forget what they call that,but there is a local name for it.And there's a couple of other ones right in this point in here.If you look at this,it's fairly massive breccia flows,some massive lava flows;actually,mainly andesites. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-6543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -93- It almost looks like a flood basalt type environment,like what you would get down in the Columbia River basalts.A lot of dykes,a lot of rifting,most of the dykes going about north 45 degrees west.You see it over and over and over again. And if you look at the photo quite carefully,you see a lot of linear features going in here which are actually striking about north 50,north 45 degrees west.And many of these dipping south,some of 'em at 60 degrees south,some of tem more steeply,and they appear to be some kind of - possibly jointing system,which you see --I don't -=this whole region. You have other joints in there as well. This is the normal fault right in here.It's a lot of weathering along it.It goes over the nob here,and then on the other side it's a little harder to see.And it strikes down into the Summer Bay Lake,and it's a fairly decent exposure there.There actually may be several faults there,but there's definitely one break.I mean,if you actually want to go see a fault,that's a good place to see it.Next slide? That's a drilling rig at Summer Bay.The fault --this is a bad picture,but there's probably a fault right in here.I can't remember --I'll have to go back to my notes now,but the one which I pointed out is actually --it's right about in here. It's a little hard to see.Maybe it's this knob here.I can't - not sure --and then it comes down,and sort of goes toward this region in here. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -94- UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Where's the hot springs? MR.REEDER:The hot springs are located right in there.Basically,although I wasn't at the site when the drilling was initiated,I advised the --with respect to drilling operations,to drill on line with the trend of that fault,going toward the hot spring.Although I recognized the fault as going this way,I wasn't sure if that fault which is sort of perpendicular to this main one --I wasn't sure if this fault actually cut it off,or what.But still the same,this thing trended toward the hot spring.So,I advised they drill right in here.I also didn't want 'em to drill in the meadow and mess everything up,and then the Ounalashka Corporation would be upset with me. MR.YARTER:(Inaudible)how deep? MR.REEDER:The wells are pretty shallow. They're --I don't like to talk too much about the wells,because they're embarrassing to me.-They really weren't drilled the way they should have been.The wells were abandoned.It's sort of a sad drilling operation.But they did confirm that there was an artesian system.I was able to get water samples which Roman analysed,and we did get stuff out of it.The wells were about 50 feet deep? MR.MARKLE:45 feet. MR.REEDER:And they hit artesian aquifer around 40 feet. R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 10t SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -95- MR.YARTER:(Inaudible,away from mike) MR.REEDER:Yeah.Next slide? MR.RIEHLE:What was the maximum temperature in those wells,John? MR.REEDER:Maximum - -well,as you let the water flow,it got warmer and warmer,which is a natural trend in geothermal.Maximum temperature,I think,was 5---was 122 degree Fahrenheit,which is a little above 50 degrees centigrade. COURT REPORTER:Can I ask that people asking questions try to remember to use the microphones? MR.REEDER:That was Jim Riehle.Next? Okay,in this view you don't see any faults or obvious ones,I don't think.But at least it gives you a good idea of the contact between these andesites up here or --there's other things,but mainly andesites --are the Makushin formation,the more recent volcanic rocks,which are very dark,very easy to see,and the highly altered Unalaska formation,and there's a lot of gabbro type bodies in here.If you go further down,you get into a little higher silica type plutonic rock. MR.purtreR:Which field is this,John?Excuse me. MR.REEDER:Excuse me.This is fumarole field #three,and pretty much --I mean,this is a main part of the field,but it actually extends out,and you even see signs of R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 cet te agree mee:- 96- fumaroles even over in here,so the field is a lot larger than what you might actually think when you see all this fumarole activity from up here. MR.MARKLE:(Inaudible,away from mike) MR.REEDER:Pardon?Is this Glacier Valley?Yes. MR.HUTTRER.:John,are we looking at a plutonic rock in the foreground?Are we looking at Unalaska formation at the foreground? MR.REEDER:There's extensive alteration,and I haven't done too much with the clay mineralogy and so forth,but you do have gabbros up there,and you have a lot more plutonic rock further down.You also have --there are areas where you see Unalaska formation also.So,it looks like probably you're close --you're in a boundary region between plutonic -- being a gabbro,and that of the Unalaska formation.And it seems to change radically within very short distances. MR.HUTTRER:.-As I recall from your map,this is Hettrer speaking.As I recall from your map,fumarole fields fone,two,and three are some of the closest ones to Unalaska village,that are on the eastern side of the whole operation. MR.REEDER:That's right. MR.HUTTRER:Would this be one that might be in contention as a site for --for drilling,or production drilling? MR.REEDER:Eventually,yeah. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8843 272-7513 ANCHORAGE,4LASKA 99501 ee ae pr re ar ee ig egg gy ee -grrregy Qe egg ee ce ee -97- MR.qUTTRER.:Well,I mean just speaking logistically,is this typical of the logistics of the terrain, steepness of some of your other sites too? MR.REED:This is very typical of the terrain in Makushin region.This is very typical.In fact,you might even say that this is a little more accessible than some of the other areas,because you can come up the Glacier Valley, which is rightatthefoot of this.The elevation on this -- oh,I keep forgetting what these elevations --but they're a little above 2,000 feet. MR.HUTTRER :How flat is the top of that andesite flow? MR.REED:Fairly flat.I mean,you --it's -- that's --I mean,it does have a slope to it.I'm not sure what slope it would be;about 6 degrees or so.But there is_a slope to it.But it is very flat,and then of course,it's almost like a vertical cliff coming off.There are other sites which logistics aren't as serious of a problem as here.But this is typical topography on Makushin,yeah.Let's go on to the next one.Next slide. This is fumarole field #one.You have a lot of pyro- clastics out --filling the valley.I'll talk about that a little more.The thing which I'd like to point out to you is -- maybe you can focus that a little bit,Jim --is this feature right in here,which moves in this direction here.It's nearly R &R COURT REPORTERS B1ON STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 98- vertical or a slight dip to the south,and it's striking about north 10 --let's see,about north,80 degrees east,roughly. No,actually it's almost east west right in here.It trends right about where I'm standing right now,and it goes past me, and it's exposed on cliffs further up behind me.This is one of the fractures which I consider to be fairly recent because it's cutting some of the pyroclastics here.It's not cutting it by much,and I --unfortunately,this is a tricky spot to get to so I didn't actually examine that as closely as I would have liked to.But at least that's one of the features which I'm making reference to.Okay,next'slide. _MR.CAREY:Is.that actually --excuse me,John. Is that actually hot water coming out there?Is that a hot-water spring?Or is that a cold-water spring right in the foreground? MR.REEDER:Here? MR.CAREY:Yeah,right there. MR.REEDER:It's cold water,but there's hot springs behind you,or hot springs below the hill --I mean, down by the creek.And that water that's seeping out of that fracture that I was pointing out is cold. This is a view of fumarole field #two.This is one of the original photos that I took.Fumarole field #one you can see from the Sugarloaf region.We actually made observations of it before we even had the helicopter support in 1980.You can see this fumarole field,also,from the Sugarloaf region,and R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -99- I'll make reference to Sugarload later.--it's on the map -- if you've got good weather.But unfortunately,when you're up there --originally in 1980 we scanned the whole region,and we could not see this,mainly because of weather.And it wasn't until we had helicopter support,the first day that we had a helicopter,that we actually made observation of this field, which is fairly large.The fault --one.of the faults which I've recognized is.right in here.It's a normal fault,dipping steeply to the south. MR.HUTTRER:Excuse me,John.This is Hettrer again.Which direction are we looking,please?Compass direction? MR.REEDER:Okay,this photo's a little misleading,okay?#One,the photo is --you're tilted a little bit,okay?In other words,this point here is lower than this one by several --by probably 100 feet,at least,so this whole picture should be tiled this way.Makushin is up in here,and this is a ridge going up to Makushin.So, approximately you're looking northwest.You're looking right across from the fumarole field.The main fumarole field extends over in here,out of the picture.It includes most of this region in here,comes down,goes up here,again hot springs below it,which is sort of typical.So it's a fairly large field.Recognized another normal fault right in here,and unfortunately last summer the snow cover was so thick that we R&R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 1LQ0 couldn't even see it,so there is a lot of variation.This was - photo was taken -- gee,I forget the date on it,but this was taken in 1980,probably the end of July.And last summer we were up there in August,and for example,the ridges up here were completely snow-covered,so just because of heavy snowfall..... MR.HUTTRER -?Where's the contact between the younger volcanics and the underlying..... MR.REEDER:The younger volcanics are up here, and then they end.There's no more. MR.HUTTRER-:Are we looking at Unalaska formation, then? MR.REEDER:There's Unalaska formation in here, you can sort of see layering.And then you've got gabbros lower down.And it's back and forth.It's almost as if the Unalaska formation is almost like a root(ph)pendant(ph)floating in these things.It's something like that.It appears to be a complex relationship.And unfortunately,there's so much alteration,the whole hillside is mass gravity movements,so probably some fluction(ph),maybe you can call it a landslide. But there is a stability problem here.And this isn't unusual at these high elevations.In fact,the hill I'm on,which is Unalaska formation,also appears to have a lot of landsliding on it,which from a logistical point of view could pose some serious problems. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 e- er ge cn ee ee -101- MR.NICHOLS:Any dyke forms exposed? MR.REEDER:Yeah,there's a --actually,there's a dyke up here near where that fault is,and that's the only one. Most of your dykes are to the northeast.Most of the dykes are in the Unalaska community.It's almost as iff you have an actual rift zone in there,at some time,and it may still be active. Of course,the peak occurred a long,long time ago,and then it's been exponential(ph)type,sort of like what they think happened with the Columbia River site.I --the overall geology,I don't quite --I haven't really pieced together things.There's a lot I need to do --we're getting into age dating,and a few other things will help put a handle on things, but I honestly feel that the Unalaska formation,or at least in the northern part of Unalaska,which is mainly volcanic rock, is some kind of flood lava type feature which is related to the subduction of the Kula plate.And what I think happened is that as that spreading ridge went under,initially you had probably more andesitic type floods occurring along rifting,and then it's changing composition a little bit toward a basaltic type, and then eventually the spreading bridge went under,and then your plutos(ph)and --you know --began again,and that's what formed things like the Captains Bay pluton,when.the north --when the Pacific plate was going underneath the North American plate.I feel that that's sort of what's happening.This is the only conceptual model I have. R&R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-6543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 ee a -lQ2- Unfortunately,I don't have very much data to back up what I just said. MR.NICHOLS:No silicic differentia(ph)which you have here in the area?Diorite (Inaudible).... MR.REEDER:Yeah,you have diorite. COURT REPORTER:I can't hear you without your microphone. MR.NICHOLS:I'm sorry.You have quartz-diorite. Clay Nichols,and asked what the most silicic differentiate was in the volcanics. MR.REEDER:You have quartz-diorite,and I don't know what --I --we have chemical (Indiscernible)data on that, but I just don't have it with me.Gabbros are very common.I mean,it's --I suspect that --I mean,we're just not seeing most of the plutonic rock.I mean,we're just seeing the edges of it,and that's why you're seeing a lot of gabbros. MR,HUTTRER:.John.... MR.REEDER:There was another fault over in here which was originally recognized in 1980,also.So there's actually three of 'em going through. MR.HUTTRER I was curious to know whether this area what was the relationship of this area to those two prominent northwest trending faults that you showed on the very first aerial you supplied? MR.REEDER:Okay,first --the first slide?I R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -103- believe there's a slide that shows two faults that are subparallel to one another that go out to sea off Point Kadin. I wondered if they go through this feature. MR.REEDER:Yeah,this is one of 'em right here. And the other one is over in here.And originally when that slide was put together it didn't even show this one.But there is --the slide is not quite correct,and so it's just a generalization. MR.HUTTRER :This slide shows two or three prominent lineaments that you can detect right on it,and I was curious to know if you just studied it for --for slides. There's one on the right side of the slide,just to the --at 11:00 o'clock from the shadow of the viewgraph machine.And there are two bands that go up --that seem to be marked by vegetation right in the center of the slide,that trend just about straight up and down across the screen.And I just wonder if those things are not all fauit related. MR.REEDER:You mean right here? MR.HUTTRER:Yes,that's one. MR.REEDER:That is.... MR.HUTTRER:And then.... MR.REEDER:.....that is the fault. MR.HUTTRER:-:----Okay,and then move your hand to the left.... MR.REEDER:At.least,that's where..... R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 309 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,4LASKA 99501 -104- MR.HUTTRER.:...emove your hand to the left another inch from where you just were,a little.... MR.REEDER:Here? MR.HUTTRER.i eee well,that could be,or just to the right again.Right. MR.REEDER:This isn't broken up here.That's one solid piece.And then suddenly you lose it..... MR.HUTTRER :Yeah. MR.REEDER:.....right where the..... MR.HUTTRER And then the Valley off to the right of the fumarole --the left-hand fumarole field also appears to be fault controlled. MR.REEDER:To the right? MR.HUTTRER Just put your shadow on the --you see the small snow field up --no,the top there.That appears to be in a valley that looks like it's fault controlled,and leading down toward -yes. MR.REEDER:Now,I don't know about that,but it could be parallel.I don't think it's all that unusual.And this here is --I interpret as bedding(ph).And you have to be careful about the dip(ph)because this is a bad photo.It's disoriented.I've --I've looked for a lot of linear type features,and I may have --you have to be real careful in this region because there's an awful lot of linears. Fortunately,in the Makushin region it's not as serious of a R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 $09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 105- problem as it is in the immediate Unalaska community region, which has been --you know --heavily glaciated,and has the Older rocks,and there's just linears right and left.Okay, next slide.ls tlle I forget what we're --okay,this is going on that main feature,which is on that original slide,this shows a break which is going across this meadow.This is in the Shieznakoff Valley(ph).You can see it going up.This is the plutonic rock.I don't even know what composition it is here.And then it's going towards you,although when you get close you sort of lose it in perspective.But to me --you know --something like that is --it's pretty recent when it's cutting things like that. Okay,next slide. And this is going the other direction,toward --I think it's Point Kadin,and.on.the other side of Makushin.And the break --the linear break which you see is off toward the Bering side,and parallels a lot of these little cinder cones, explosion craters,as you might call 'em.There's one in here, there's this one,and then you could just see quite a few of 'em going up the mountainside.You can follow the break all the way up to the caldera region of Makushin.Once it gets up there you lose it because there's ice fields and everything else,and whether it actually continues and it's exactly the same fault as what I'm mapping on the other side is debatable, but I think it's sort of insignificant,also.It's just R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -106- basically in the same trend.Okay,next slide. Okay,now,what does this all mean from the point of view of tectonics?I do want to spend a little time with this because I feel it's important,although we don't have all the answers, obviously.But Unalaska is --on this map,is located down here,136.And what's plotted here is the direction of maximum horizontal compression.This is mainly from the work of Dr.Nakamura,who I had a fortunate opportunity of meeting in Tokyo.In fact,I even stayed in his home several nights, which saved me lots of money.And basically,it --his theory, which does need a lot of work on,states that if a specific floor is going underneath the North American continent,which is a plate,which is located here,and includes the Aleutians, that you will have a direction of maximum horizontal compression, which should be approximately in the same direction as the plate --relative plate motion.And in this case,it should be approximately north 45,north 50 degrees,west.And Nakamura did a lot of work with --you know --volcanic features,cinder cones,alignment,and so forth,trying to substantiate --you know --a correlation between what observations he could make in a very general fashion,with that of the relative plate motion.There appears to be something to this.Okay,next slide. I'll talk --give you a few general slides here,but most of these are taken out of his publication.This is upside R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 10t SO9 W.IRD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 +277-0873 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,4LASKA 99501 107- down,but it doesn't matter.Basically,when you're in a realm where you do have a maximum horizontal compression,you're going to get a certain fracturing system,or at least from the theoretical basis you will get one.And what Nakamura's trying to illustrate here is that from a point source if the stresses are fairly uniform the fracturing will simply radiate out from your point source.Your --supposedly may be a magma chamber or a volcanic vent.Over here,he is saying okay,let's let this direction be a much larger force than this one,which is perpendicular,.and he is saying this will be our maximum horizontal compression right here.And when that happens,then certain things happen on a theoretical basis on what you will get.He says that you can get things perpendicular,which in a volcanic region this would probably be dyking type features, and you will get a lot of faulting going in this direction.And then you'll get things radiating from your volcanic source,but they always try to radiate out.Okay,next slide. Okay,now --then he gives an example of a volcanic region where you have maximum horizontal compression going this way,and indeed,he is showing that within your volcanic centers you know --you do get an alignment going this direction in the direction of motion,which could be either volcanic vents or fracturing,and so forth.And then yau get fractures which are dominantly strike slip,where these things here would be more of a --just simply opening up,spreading, R&R COURT REPORTERS 810N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8843 272-7313 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 co zg 24 25 -108- or possibly normal faulting,which is typical of spreading type environments,which are somewhat perpendicular to each other --these strike slips,but are also at angles with your normal faulting.So,he's predicting a pattern here.And indeed,it looks like,roughly speaking,this is what we're getting in Unalaska,is that you're getting a compression this way with a lot of what appears to be normal faulting dominating, going this direction in here.We are getting faulting that's almost perpendicular to this,which in some cases looks like strike slip and normal.And then it looks like we are getting roughly east-west,north-south type faulting,which in theory should be strike slip,although I haven't really verified that very well. Okay,now,I forget what the next slide is.And indeed in the mapping feature like --for example,here is Tabletop Mountain,which is a fairly recent volcanic feature,has a lot of basalt flows from it,you actually see dikes which go up into it which are oriented approximately north 45 degrees west in this particular case,and then you also have features which are perpendicular to it.This is Makushin in the background.Next slide.Again,I'm sort of forgetting where I'm at. And again,I pointed out that we had a feature which was going right through the fumarole field on top of Makushin.We have a small dome,and various activity occurring.So,it looks like there is actually a correlation with the structure. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 309 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3ROD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -109- Could I just see what the next slide is?Okay.So,I'm going to go to the overhead and generalize a little bit how this relates to geothermal with respect to Makushin,specifically. Let's see,try to get this thing right. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Only eight possible ways. MR.REEDER:Okay,you guys,don't give me a bad time.Again,now,I am making some interpretations here,which maybe I shouldn't be,but basically what I'm saying on this graph of Makushin region is that you've got a dominance of normal faulting going this direction,which is north 45.You do have a feature which sort of goes perpendicular to that. We've seen this in Unalaska,we've seen it elsewhere on the island,and we also see it here,although I just didn't draw it. It goes through here,and it lines there,and goes out this way in this region in here.And then we have these other fractures which are almost north-south,east-west,which in theory should be strike slip,although I'm not sure about that.The interesting thing about these is that in part they're tectonically related.They're related to what we think would be a stress field in this region.And because of this,they seem to have some control on the magmatic systems which we'd see in the region.And of course,that's been documented by some of the recent volcanic activity that's been related to the strike slip,which seems to me like it'd be more of an off,. it would try to prevent volcanic activity,than on,just because R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W,3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -110- of its nature,and the normal faulting,which because it's opening,seems to me would encourage volcanic activity. And in the case of the fumarole fields,it looks like that with respect to these faults we've actually had volcanic extrusions occurring like,for example,in fumarole field two a distance of about --alittle under 2 kilometers from the fumarole field.That's true with this fault feature here;with respect to fumarole field it's about 2 kilometers.Some of these faults down in here,if you move over about a kilometer or two you start running into lava flows.Up here we have --this whole field around Sugarloaf is recent --fairly recent volcanics.It's at least --I mean,they're a little older than some of the other features which I'm talking about. Again,Sugarloaf appears td be related to these features.And you even have hot rock like at eight(ph),which is documented. It looks like the fumarole fields are occurring fairly close to areas where we've had qualturnic(ph)volcanic activity,or even very recent volcanic activity.And I think this is very,very significant.These features probably control magmatic processes which you expect.It's probably dyke-like magma bodies that --dominating throughout the whole region here. And I would say --and this is an interpretation --that because no recent volcanic extrusion has occurred in fumarole field one,two,or three,that the heat source is probably fairly deep in these regions,as a guess -=-quote - one or two kilometers, R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 1lll1- or at least the heat source is located laterally,probably,one or two kilometers.Now,we're going to try to get some dates on this,..but I would say that just based on what I would guess what a---the more recent Makushin volcanics,is that these things probablyare in the bracket of several million years in age.So,it looks like we've had no recent volcanic activity for the last couple of million years.And I think in part this is probably an.encouraging thing with respect to this particular region.And that is at least-you might call this a target region because in my eyes there is the slight possibility that you do.have,or could possibly have a major geothermal resource there,just because your heat sources would be a little further away.- Now,when you move over into an area like Sugarloaf,or Pakushin down here,which is off of you,or back in towards the Makushin volcano,again,when you start having recent volcanic features right at the surface,what I would predict is that you're going to get a lot of hot rock.But whether you actually get large hydrothermal systems,I have a lot of questions in my mind.Also,when you move into regions like --on the Sugarloaf Cone flows,which flow out into this region in here,I would expect that because of the porous or permeable nature of the basalts in here that water has probably pretty much removed most of the heat,so I would predict that probably in most of your recent volcanics,the R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 309 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE277-0572 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -112- Makushin volcanics,or even more recent volcanics such as your Sugarloaf flow up in here,that you'd have very low temperature gradients until you get very deep.And then when you get very deep,I don't know what you might get.Who knows?It is possible that you could have major geothermal resources scattered throughout this whole region,but they just --we just don't have any evidence to point toward that.But I think we are sort of -=just based on what we're seeing here in the geology --getting a little insight into what's going on with respect to the geothermal resource. Then I want to say a few words about hazards. MR.ANSARI:John,before you - this is Jamal Ansari,from the University of Fairbanks.I just want to ask a question.Do these north 50 degrees west faults belong to the same geological period,same age peripd,the (Indiscernible)period,or are the scattered in time? MR.REEDER:I don't know how to answer that, because we got --we've got a lot of dykes which are --appear to be pretty old --I mean,older than the Captains Bay pluton,these things which have been dated at twelve million years,which are going in north 45 degrees west direction.So, it looks like the Pacific plate has been going underneath the North American plate for quite a long time.The Unalaska formation,I think,they believe is around minus --let's see -- it's plus or minus --they've found a few fossils and so forth -- R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.ARO AVENUE 1007 W.33RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,4&LASKA 99501 tee ge egy ee gg ge ee ee ee EL eee -113- really don't have any good dates on that formation.But it could easily be in a bracket of twenty million or more in age, a lot older.If the --there are dykes,for example,which cut the Captains Bay pluton,and so,obviously,there are dykes observed in the field which cover a pretty wide spectrum in age;i.e.,they're more recent than twelve million years in age.And then of course,I've --those cinder cones on the side of Makushin there --that's a dyke which is probably a couple thousand years in age.So you have a fairly large spectrum in age. MR.ANSARI:And you think the faults are associated with the dykes,then,right? MR.REEDER:Well,yeah.Some of these faults, I think,are active now.I mean,from a geologic point of view. Some of ''em I'm not sure about.In fact,I think I distinguished those.The lines drawn in red are considered to be --to have been active geologicallyinrecent times.And I'm --don't ask me to qualify recent.And the ones that are black or sort of a blue --let's see - like down in here --I just don't know.I mean,I just have no evidence to say that they're active now. They could be very old faults.There's also some --some deviations in here which bother me a little bit,like in here -- I mean,this orientation is about north 50 degrees west,and they you get up on the other side over here,and it switches down to around north 60 some degrees west,and little things happen R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 "114- which confuse me a.little bit.The theory isn't fitting what we're seeing exactly.And --but I think that anything that's oriented north 45 --or close to that --west,fault-wise,has a very high potential of --of having magma in it,or someplace located in it. We've got some diagrams with respect to joint orientations.The joints seem to do all kinds of things.Most of 'tem that we observe are vertical.But we seem to have a lack of joints which are slightly north 10 degrees east.Faults -- there seem to be some trends there.These are all the faults... MR.TURNER:John,before you take that off -- Don Turner here --you were talking about the age of all those volcanics being several million years or so.You would not include the big flow that comes north off Sugarloaf in that group,would you?That's probably much younger..... MR.REEDER:Oh,yeah. MR.TURNER:......that whole area.Well,could we have the slide on again --the transparency? MR.REEDER:Well,I would say this.Sugarloaf is a fairly recent feature,but it's a lot older than a lot of the other stuff.And I don't know how you can age - let's see --the cone.... MR.TURNER:Yeah,all that --all that area of general topography just above Sugarloaf to the north there is a system of pretty young flows,I would say,probably not R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -115- several million years old. MR.REEDER:Well,I would say that probably Sugarloaf --or all the flows that you see coming from Sugarloaf here probably definitely was in the last 100,000 years.There's a very good chance that they're probably --they could possibly - question mark --be within the --since the last maximum glacial maximum. MR.TURNER:Yeah,I just..... MR.REEDER:Which would put it back.... MR.TURNER:.....wanted to make that point that we did have quite a volume of..... MR.REEDER:......yeah..... MR.TURNER:....0f quite young..... MR.REEDER:.....they haven't really been..... MR.TURNER:......(Indiscernible,due to simultaneous speech) MR.REEDER:_sss .glaciated,but there's some indication that they've been slightly glaciated,at least in the higher parts.And I don't know about the erosional features down in here.They're --I don't think that if they are younger than 10,000 years,I don't think they're much younger than that. MR.MOTYKA:Excuse me,John,one other comment. As I recall Drew's map of the Sugarloaf basaltic:field,to continue on to the southeast across the Makushin Valley..... MR.REEDER:Uh-huh. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 10t S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,4LASKA 99501 -116- MR,MOTYKA:.....that one..... MR.REEDER:Right. MR.MOTYKA:.....plateau you see over there? MR.REEDER:That's correct. MR.MOTYKA:Okay.Right near where you have the ash flow or debris flow spotted..... MR.REEDER:Yeah. MR.MOTYKA:.....and that's been carved out now by a glacial valley,it looked like,so it looks like we've.:had at least one,at least neoglacial advance cut through that basalt so it looks like got some data on it. MR.REEDER:This is a pretty big valley in general,too.I mean,that --something like this just doesn't form overnight.You're referring to this? MR.MOTYKA:Yeah,right.Drew's maps that as being part of the Sugarloaf basaltic field,but there's the huge glacial trough cut through it,so..... MR.REEDER:As far as I'm concerned,it is.In fact,you can follow it all the way down into the canyon and go back up.So,it is --just to show you --I don't know about tim here,but just,for example,faults --these are some things which I had Mark Larsen hunt up for me.You can sort of see that --what this is is a plot of the whole northern hemisphere from the plane of the fault,and these are just observed faults in the field,nothing inferred from air photographs or anything R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 W -117- else.And I don't know how many points are here,but it's probably under 100.Here it's sort of interesting,the north 45, which your pole --if the fault's steeply dipping,which they usually are,either north or south,and more commonly south -- you would expect a very high maximum right about in here.And indeed you do get one,but it's shifted off just a little bit around north 50 --north 55.And then you have another one, which is more north --probably about north 80 degrees in this particular case here.It's almost as if --if you assume - let's see --I'm not quite sure what the exact relative motion of the Pacific Plate to the North American plate is.I helieve it is north 45 degrees west,+l...But when ou start getting that nitty-picky,we really don't know what the plate or what the subduction slab is doing as it's going under Unalaska. But it does seem like that the faulting has sort of flip-flopped on both sides of that ideal figure,which is something I don't quite understand.You also have an axis which is perpendicular to that,which is right in here,which is interesting.And then you have one which is offset just a little bit to the northwest which in theory should be the strike slip,and you do have a slight favor there.And then you also have one which is shooting off --well,it's not actually on this --it doesn't show too well.But you can sort of see right on these graphs a little bit what I'm saying.I think the joints --you don't get such a nice picture,so I*m not going to show that to you, R&R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 10f SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7513 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -118- But I will the dykes which we have observed,and there's been quite a few dykes.And here it's a little more --I think a little more pronounced,in fact.You have a north -- approximately north 45 - north --actually,it looks like a little more like north 50 degrees west.You have another one going up here which is about north --which fit with these poles right in here,which would be about north 45 degrees east.And then you have one that's a little offset from your east-west pole concentration here,and then you have another one which is off --which reflects the slight offset north-south,which is here and here.You can actually see these darn things,which is sort of amazing. And then I want to talk a little bit about hazards,and this is just a preliminary thing,but something you should be aware of.I mean,Makushin has erupted --I don't know -- fourteen times.The last eruption,I think,occurred in 1938, and.....0..wee._- UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:(Inaudible,away from mike) MR.REEDER:.....and --yeah,they may not do you much good.The last eruption by --Henry Swanson's one of the oldest people in town,and I-.tried to nail him on exactly what happened in that eruption.It seems to be a lot of confusion,but he's been the best source so far.Apparently what they think happened was that there was a flank eruption on Makushin in 1938,and it occurred on a north flank,somewhere R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -119- close to fumarole seven,.which does have some hot rock near, and there's a lot of reports from several other sources other than Henry Swanson of very dirty waters coming out in here.So it looks like probably that was the type eruption which occurred. What you see here --and it's something to realize,is that you have a very large pyroclastic body sitting in here --I have a few slides of that --sitting in here,as well as here,and over toward.fumarole field one and near fumarole field two, positioned down in here.Now,we've seen pyroclastics elsewhere in :the island,and they haven't been mapped too well,but these are three very large ones.And what's significant about this,I think,is that when the Makushin caldera formed --I think you have to realize that,number one --I should draw that in --we do have this one feature which goes right through the fumarole field up here and goes down this slope,heading this way.I didn't draw it here,but it is there.There's a lot of evidence for it.And then we have this major north 45,north 50 degrees west feature,which goes this way.The interesting thing about it is they intersect not in the center of Makushin,but off on the side.And you'll note --you'll note that if you look at the caldera feature,from the elevation that we can get on it, is that the caldera walls are much lower on the north side and on the east side than they are anywhere else on the volcano. And we'll look at some of the gravity data later,which even adds a little more perspective.But it looks like this is R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -120- probably a zone of weakness,and when the Makushin --when it blew,and the caldera started collapsing,most likely,I would expect,that if anything was going to break,as far as the side walls of the volcano,it would be in this region in here.And indeed,you probably did have quite a few blasts going off in these directions,which looks like exactly what happened.And it's almost like --in some ways,a little bit like Mt.St. Helens type thing,except in Mt.St.Helens I think they had a strike slip fault in there.It had one of these type features in the mountain instead of a normal fault .--major normal fault structure,or at least that's based on Steve Malone's seismic data.But that's something to remember,and it's -- looks like it's still that situation.I mean,in general,you can get basalt flows over in this region,and so forth,so forth,so forth.You have a lot of basalts,but as you move over into Makushin you do get these sites in Makushin,like the flows coming from this rift here,almost all andesites.You get the higher silica,which would be typical,would be more explosive. So this would be the main source for large pyroclastics.And if you have more pyroclastic flows,I would expect that there'd be a tendency for them to go in somewhat the same direction as they went this time.And it could pose some real serious problems. We'll take some looks at these pyroclastics,and then I'm going to stop talking. MR.ARCE:John,could I break in for a minute? R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 MR.REEDER:Yeah.Oh, MR.ARCE:This is Gary just have a comment to make directed at and that's that I'll be doing this type a volcanic hazards study,in connection -121- yeah. - -this is Gary Arce. the people at Republic, of a study this summer with thesis work at I the University of Alaska,Fairbanks.This is a couple copies,a real short description of what a volcanic hazards study is,and why it's important,and I have several other copies if anybody else is interested.And if any time after you have a chance to look at that you have any questions,I'll be glad to answer. MR,HUTTRER:.All right,Gary,thank you. MR.CAREYY Dwight Carey.You've got --that's all right.I know that the --the geothermal power plant on -- in Hawaii at Puna is --although the geologic situation is much different,is designed to be dismantable,if I'm not mistaken. In under 48 hours they can get out all the capital equipment that's not in the ground...-Although that geologic situation is one where in fact you have a much more predictable and escapable volcanic hazards.But I know they've certainly considered that exact problem in Hawaii.Again,we've got a -- obviously,from your description,a much different situation here. MR.HUTTRER:Patti was just saying that there was a 6.2 earthquakenot long ago at Makushin. MR.REEDER:Yeah,off the island. R &R COURT REPORTERS SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 277-8543 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 272-7515 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 277-0872 -277-0873 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 122- MR.HUTTRER:That'll move you around a little bit. MR.REEDER:That wasn't at Makushin. MS.DeJONG:It wasn't at Makushin,but it was felt at Unalaska. MR.CAREY:No,that was off Fox Islands,wasn't it?I mean,off the island.... MR.REEDER:Yeah,I think it was to the east, toward Unimak.But I'm not sure of that. MR.HUTTRER:John,if we could go through the rest of your slides,perhaps it'd help us move along. MR.REEDER:Okay. MR.HUTTRER:We have some time constraints that are sneaking up on a few other.people. MR.REEDER:I won't say anything more except maybe five minutes with these slides,and then that's it. MR.HUTTRER:you bet. MR.REEDER:The gravity --I'll talk about the gravity a little bit when we get to gravity. MR.HOTTRER:Right. MR.ANSARI:Jerry,can I.--were you done? Okay,I just wanted to make a comment.This is Jamal Ansari from the University of Alaska,Fairbanks.Motyka's report on -- the open file report on the eruption of the volcano in 1980,as recent as that. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 10t S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3ROD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -123- MR.REEDER:I was all over the volcano,and I didn't detect any..... MR.MOTYKA:Yeah,as I explained to you,it was Lamont Dougherty(ph)who flew by in a helicopter and saw debris spewed out on the flank of the mountain,which they attributed to a flank eruption.And that was reported into the Smithsonian,is all I know about it. MR,HUTTRER:Excuse me,which flank was that, the north-west flank? MR.MOTYKA:That'd be on the Kadin-fissure (ph) side,would be north-west. MR.REEDER:You know,they report about fourteen eruption since 1760,and I guess Coates(ph)- and then some people have added to that.I don't know how well documented that record is,but --you know --Makushin is sort of overdue. You might just keep that in mind.One of the --you know -- just direct observation is probably one of the most important things with respect to volcanic hazard,in my.eyes,But Ill say one thing about this region,is that because of the weather you just don't see what Makushin is doing most of the time.In fact,you could have a minor eruption on the volcano and not even know it,just because of the weather.But even with a drilling operation,it could be difficult.Even in seismology --you know --if --if your phones are 1 hertz,which is usually what they are at,instead of 4.5 or something,you're R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -124- going to pick up all kinds of noise,just from weather,from wind --you know.It's really a tough --tough --you know -- to differentiate --you know --what the mountain is actually doing versus what everything else that's happening,which would be a little bit of a problem. Okay,I'll just go into a few slides,and I won't take so much time because we've got a lot of other people that probably want to say something.The --one of the things which I was always concerned about when I was at Unalaska is that from the point of view of hazard,I feel that Unalaska actually --the community of Unalaska actually does have a hazard from tsunamis,not from a large earthquake type tsunami,where the waves might come into the harbor,but a sub-marine eruption, just because of this north 45 degree west typé orietation. Because it's quite possible you could have a sub-marine eruption occurring,for example,at approximately the entrance into your harbor.This is the White Bay(ph)cone right here,The lower flanks have been glaciated,so it's probably --you know -- it's a feature which is probably in the bracket of 10,000 years or so,plus or minus.But that is a possibility,and it oculd generate a tsunami which could do a lot of damage in the harbor itself.Probably,though,with all the fishing and boat activity,there'd probably be a lot of warning if that was to occur.I think that'd be a pretty rare event,so I don't think people should panic.But it's-something to be just aware R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 w.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -125- of.Okay,next slide.This is the --one of the pryoclastic flows which is on the north part of the island.You can see it's fairly extensive,and it's occupying this eroded valley right in here.Next slide? This is a view toward --near fumarole field one,and just to give you a rough idea of what I'm seeing here,or at least what I think I see,it looks like you have a very fluidized,base surge(ph)type deposit sitting in here.The only deposit here which does contain some plutonic particles in it -I think it's..a Lahar,but I'm not 100%sure of that.I'm pretty sure now it's not glacial.It's just a thin -thin one.This base surge thing occupys most of this slope.So I don't think that's glacial,but --question mark.And then you have sort of a welded breccia (ph)sitting in here.It's not very thick. Varies quite a bit from 4 feet to --some places it could be as thick as 15 feet.And then you have a sequence which you might call inertia flows up on top,about --it varies in thickness quite a bit,but probably in depth of about 150 feet,at least near this locality.Consists of a lot of different flow events, with no erosional surface whatsoever.Probably these features right in here,the welded material all the way up to the top, represents the main formation of the Makushin caldera.This might be something that's earlier.Again,that's questionable. MR.TURNER:John,that looks like a place where you said a fault went through,before in one of your other R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 photos,but maybe I'm.... MR.REEDER: MR.TURNER: thing being broken there. MR.REEDER: MR.TURNER: slide? MR.REEDER: MR.TURNER: MR.REEDER: are coming out. MR.TURNER: MR.REEDER: - 126- It is. I don't see any evidence for any- Yeah. Is there anything we can see in the No. What's the basis for the fault? The orientation of your waters that Okay,were those little..... If there's any displacement there, it's very small.I mean,you're probably looking at centimeters, or even millimeters.Very small. MR.TURNER: trends?cee MR.REEDER: MR.TURNER: small? MR.REEDER: MR.RIEHLY: please? MR.REEDER: MR.RIEHLE: Is this one of your major fault Uh-huh. So the actual offset is very Yeah,if there's my. John,where is this located,again, Near fumarole field one. What is the nearby volcano or R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 277-0572 +277-0873 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -127- cone,or center? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Sugarloaf. MR.REEDER:Sugarloaf,and.--.and Makushin.I could pinpoint it on the map,if you want. MR.HUTTRER:.This is the spot you pointed out earlier and said it's hard to get to. MR.REEDER:Yes,it is. MR.TURNER:John,your previous slides --do you think that was a hot pryoclastic flow,or a cold debris flow,a mud flow? MR.REEDER:This thing here,I think,was.... MR.TURNER:No,two slides previous. MR.REEDER:Two slides previously? MR.TURNER:That one --I'm sorry. MR.REEDER:Okay.I think --there appears to be something at the base of this,just like on the other one, which could have been hot..-But I think everything --most of what you see here was not --I don't think it was that hot when it came down.That's my general interpretation.I mean,you could dig into it and it --it's relatively --it's an order of magnitude different than that lower unit,which is hard.I mean,you could go up there and whack it with a hammer,and you still can't break off pieces. MR.WESCOTT:John,this is Wescott speaking. Which valley is this?Is this Makushin Valley? R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7813 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 128- MR.REEDER:No,let's see.See,this is Bishop --I think it's near Bishop Point,so I guess you could maybe call it the Bishop Point Valley,or something.And this is one of the largest pyroclastic flow units. Okay,I'm going to stop there,and I think we should proceed,and maybe eat lunch,or something. (OFF THE RECORD) (ON THE RECORD) MR.MOTYKA:......on the Makushin Volcano, including Summer Bay and Unalaska,it was done on a reconnaissance basis to spend about two or three days in total,looking at the fumarole fields and the hot spring on the Makushin Volcano. Returned last summer again for a brief two or three day spell. What we've so far found out from the more recent investigations do not changed a whole lot what we have said in the earlier versions,so pretty much still everything stands.I think there's still a lot of room for continued investigations in the geothermal fluids,and something which if we have time, perhaps,tomorrow morning,I'd like to discuss whether we can integrate in that,or at least in terms of information flow and anything else.I have some ideas I'd like to see maybe pursued there.How's this switch on? I'll probably reiterate some of the things John's gone over already as a reemphasis.A general geologic map of the Makushin area of northern Unalaska Island.The more recent R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE {Ot SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -129- volcanics,basalt --associated with basaltic cones --they're outlined in the red,Pakushin cone down here,Kadin fissure zone --Point Kadin fissure zone here;Sugarloaf Mountain,and then Tabletop,White Bay cone.Also stated on the geologic map are the faults that John has identified crossing the islands:the major north-west trending fault.... MR.HUTTRER:Could I interrupt for one second, please,and take us off the record,Carol? (OFF THE RECORD) (ON THE RECORD) MR.MOTYKA:Anyway,John's gone through and explained the possible association of the fracture systems,and the intrusions of magma to --into the fractures,thus forming a series of dykes in the region as a possible heat thrust (ph) driving the hydrothermal systems associated with the --these fumarole fields.Over the past two summers we were able to spend a few days time at the fumaroles,sampling the fumaroles and the hot springs,all the hot springs we could locate associated with the fumarole fields,or elsewhere on the volcano. There's two series of hot springs and fumarole fields that we concentrated on,that we could easily get to,that -- I'm not sure what John's numbering system is.We called these the upper Makushin Valley and the lower Makushin Valley system. I think that's one and two in reverse order.One is what you had on yours --this is labelled number one,this is number two, R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 509 Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -130- and then Glacier Valley is number three --is that correct -- upper Glacier Valley?Okay.These three systems are the ones that we were able to obtain fumarole samples and hot springs samples from.We were not able to get to the other fumaroles located further west from Glacier Valley,nor the summit fumarole.We could not find what John calls fumarole number seven,which may have been covered by snow,or we just --it's a pretty broad area --just never have been able to spot it.I understand from John it's pretty diffuse,anyway.In addition to these thermal fields,last summer the --John and Jim(ph)from the Geophysical Institute,while they were doing the helium survey came across an area of thermally heated ground not far from Sugarloaf Mountain.No fumarolic activity associated with it at the surface.If you dig down about a half a meter to a meter you do encounter near boiling point temperatures. MR.HUTTRER:Where was that again,please? MR.MOTYKA:_I'll show you again on a follow-up map.It's located just southwest of Sugarloaf. Okay,the main thing about the waters --the hot spring waters --all the hot spring waters we could sample off Makushin,is that they are extremely low in chloride,less than 10 p.p.m.;have a fair amount of magnesium,10 p.p.m.'s to 20 p.p.m.'s;and calcium.In addition,they have a fair amount of silica.They're slightly acidic waters,typically.They occur immediately below the surface expression of fumarole R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8943 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -131- activity,or down valley from such a surface expression. Of the three fumarole fields we've looked at,all of them have had some sort of hot springs associated with them.The upper one had a series of hot springs down at the base.Fumarole field one had one way down at the base,right at river --at stream level.Probably the most interesting series of hot springs is associated with Glacier Valley.There's a whole sequence of --of hot springs that occur all the way down this valley,until it opens up into the main basin,which heads out into Makushin Bay;a length,perhaps,2 kilometers. Again,all springs located along this stretchhereturn out to be very low chloride waters.This is a blow-up of the region,showing the occurrence of these hot springs and the fumarole --zones of fumarolic activity.Fairly intense hydrothermal alteration associated with the fumarolic activity. There are stretches of the fumarole zones shown in this 1980 report,drawn fairly much to scale,and the locations of the major vents and hot springs,and the sample locations that we -- where we obtained our gas and water samples. MR.HUTTRER:Roman,could I interrupt,please, with a question?Hettrer.So far,unless I'm misunderstanding something,I"ve sensed that John Reeder was emphasizing the role of north-northwest trending features in localizing or having something to do with the geothermal features.It seems to me I see a northeast trend in here. R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -132- MR.MOTYKA:Let's go back to that.In addition to the northwest --strong northwest fracture system tthat John sees there,there's this occurrence of volcanic activity --most recent volcanic activity seems to be in an abcess(ph)like that. MR,HUTTRER:Okay. MR.MOTYKA:It seems to be parallel to the> compressional axis.Makushin,Sugarloaf,and Tabletop Mountains, and then there seems to be a minarity (ph)to0,with the occurrence of the fumarole fields and the hot springs.And I don't know whether that's associated necessarily with the volcanic activity,very well might be,or as an artifact of the corrosional top that's been cut back into the yolcano.Then again,the troughs(ph)may be structurally controlled,toa. MR.ISSELHARDT:There's also the contact in the plutonics and.... MR.MOTYKA:That's the other zone,We're also right at the edge of the volcanic field,which may be forming a cap on some of the other systems,where in some places it does break through,but usually these things occur right at the edge of the Makushin volcanic field,or the more recent basalts,than (ph) occur in the older Unalaska formation or the gabbros and grandarks(ph)that intrude it.That seemed to be a sort of linearity that's perpendicular to the trend of the fractures, without (ph)you'seeing any trends existing on the volcano. The most prominent one,again,is this one down Glacier Valley. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -oe ae 24 25 -133- It extends quite a ways down,at least a couple kilometers.And the guess is that maybe --we come down through here,and it's still fairly thin veneer of sedimentary debris immediately drift --glacial drift.But you get down in here,you start getting into a thicker sequence of sediments,and maybe these hot springs are occurring further down valley were getting buried,betting washed out in sediments,getting diluted,and you just don't see 'tem.So,that's a possibility,if you do go in there you might want to check --.as you come out of this valley you may want to go down --go down along the Glacier River.Perhaps you'll think about drilling a hole in there--I don't know. MR.HUTTRER:What further studies would you advocate in the areas to the northeast?What I'm thinking of here is that I want to --we want to study the entire system, but not to the point of making it an academic study for the purpose of this contract.'We've had to stay practical,and when it seems to be impractical we want to keep our transmission line for our resource,if we find one,to a minimum, MR.MOTYKA:I understand the problem,and unfortunately,this looks like the better system,yet you're stuck with the systems on the side of the volcano.I don't know what to say.You're going to be in real trouble,I think. The logistics of bringing something up into here are quite difficult.You may be able to get something up into the R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 wre ee 134- Sugarloaf area if you want to examine the warm ground that we've found.There's --as you probably know,there's a road --an old road that goes up to the ridge,and you can walk that ridge fairly easily over to that,and you may be able to bring a tracked vehicle over there.We can talk about that later - think about it.But what I"ve --what I think the low chloride- high magnesium waters,the high silica values mean --these are the springs we're talking about --is that we're not --we're not sampling anything deep --from any deep reservoir.We're seeing local meteoric waters,circulating to shallow depths,| being heated by the:condensationof steams and yolcanic gasses. That's --we also have a high sulfate level in the waters;that's where we're getting our sulfate.We're not picking up any chlorides.Moderate to low temperature waters --we'll pick up magnesium,and you'll see that in the waters.Why the high. silica?Maybe a couple of possibilities.One is that it"s circulating at that depth long enough for it to equalibriate with some phase of silica,perhaps quartz.If that's the case, then the shallow reservoir is fairly hot,maybe as much as 150 degrees temperature at that depth.The other possibility is that you've got an acid solution down at the bottom of this thing,| and you're attacking the rocks,and you're taking a stlica solution --a morphosilica(ph)solution that way.And if you do look at it,it seems the morphosilica is pretty much in equalibrium at the temperature --an equaltbrium at the R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 7 owe Bee oe eee oo enn eye FN Seen im.gy en me meme nae me ewe omer ow re ee cee |ee 24 25 -135- temperature we're sampling these springs.Most of these springs are running around --between 60 and 80 degrees centigrade,and a fair amount of flow,maybe up to 100 liters per minute where these springs start,so there's a fair amount of discharge right at the surface. MR.ISSELHARDT:Within the cold water chemistry is it pretty similar,magnes---do you have magnesium? MR.MOTYKA:Let me check on that.Fairly low, as I recall. MR.HUTTRER:Another question while you're looking that up.Are there silicious centers around these springs,or are they carbonate..... MR.MOTYKA:It's calcite.carbonate. MR,HUTTRER?They-are? MR.MOTYKA:Yeah.The magnesium in the cold water's running at about two --one to two.And the magnesium in the water itself's running around eight,nine,so there's not a whohe lot of change.Very low:lithium --almost zero lithium. Most cases in the Aleutians where we find waters that we're pretty sure are sampling a deep reservoir,we usually have a pretty high lithium value,and these don't have anything,ng marked lithium at all. The fumaroles we sampled probably constitute most -- probably constituted mostly of steam.We haven't --we don't know what the percentage is,but of the non-stream fraction (ph) R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 $09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0873 277-8843 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 gs we ee ee gg gee ee eee ee ewe me Ow Om ee eee eee bE 7136- of that --most of that,again,is carbon dioxide.But we do have an appreciable amount of hydrogen sulfide and hydrogen -- fair amount of hydrogen in both sides of the --both in the upper Makushin one,and the upper Glacier Valley one,which tends to indicate interaction of waters at depth with more matric type minerology.We tried applying --gaseous thermometry is still not widely accepted because of high reactivity of the gasses,particularly in the near surface region.A couple of years ago the Italians came out an empirical(ph)one based on the equalibrium between carbon --between --not --of carbon dioxide and methane and hydrogen,hydrogen sulfide.We use that. If you believe it,we estimated temperatures over 250 degrees for the upper fumarole field.We also are pursuing another gas thermometer based on the fractionation of the carbon 13 isotope between methane and carbon dioxide,which is being done in conjunction with the Harmon Krager Scripps Insitute(ph),. That thermometer has also fallen into sort of disrepute,and we're still going to follow through on it.At least the carbon dioxide --the carbon isotope still may tell us something about the origin of the carbonate species in the gas system. In addition to the carbonate isotope studies,we've also looked at the helium isotope,again from the same group. They've pretty much found a correspondence of magmatically heated terrain and a well-like basis --it corresponds to a well-like basis of magmatically heated terrain with high values R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE tOt SO9 Ww.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -137- of helium CD(ph),helium 4,indicating a primordial malsource(ph), running values over atmospheric of about eight for midoceanic ridges,and up to fifteen or twenty for supposed hot fires such as Hawaii and Yellowstone.Most of the Aleutian arc,from the peninsula on out to the west,has been averaging between seven and eight over an atmospheric ratio,except here in the Makushin area,where we have a ratio averaging from about four and a half to six and a half.This tends to indicate there's crustal contamination.We're getting rid of your genetic heliun . influence into the system.So,on the one hand we're saying that maybe there's a magmatic heat source,and there probably is because we do have a fairly high ratio;on the other hand,it may not be that --may not be that shallow,and may be deep enough so that we're getting enough crustal contamination associated with that.We still don't know that much about the helium isotope ratio to make a definitive answer. So,in terms of what the gasses and waters show so far, the water --we haven't tested anything deeper --the gasses probably come from deep in the reservoir.They're rich in carbon dioxide,have some hydrogen and some hydrogen sulfide. There's similarity between the two systems.We have this one piece of thermal ground that we looked at and-examined a little bit this past summer that didn't --I don't know if you can see that from the back room --I'll have to point it out to you. Anyway,what it is is a temperature grid that we plotted.It's. R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -138- just shallow temperatures,about 15 to 20 centimeters depth. This shaded zone indicates an area of fairly intense hydrothermal alteration,and also the area where we found the highest temperatures.At about a meter depth we picked up temperatures approaching boiling point.There's a helium sampling station for helium and --well,it was in the soil that the Institute people will probably talk about,and that's located right over here. MR.HUTTRER:What's the scale,please?We can't really see. MR.MOTYKA:Scale is --this is 30 meters.And maybe if you can turn on that first slide,this is a picture of that same area.What it looks like,hard to tell whether it's an old erupted vent,or --not too far from Sugarloaf. MR.TURNER:That's all mass(ph)on the inside. I couldn't find any evidence of a vent up there.It's --we first went up there because it looked like a vent from down the hill,but (Inaudible,away from mike).Yeah --Don Turner -- regarding the question of whether that's an eruptive vent or not. We couldn't find any evidence of that.I don't know if you guys found any or not,but it's just masses of andesite up there, in all those outcrops,and that's a cairn on the left,man-made. MR.MOTYKA:Okay,I'll switch these back on again.A couple points about some questions that came up earlier,one concerning the nature of the deeper waters,if you R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7513 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 _-139- do encounter 'em.We don't know --right now we have evidence (Indiscernible)vapor dominated system,and we don't know how far --how deep it extends.More probably,going to hit some liquid water down there,and you don't know when it's going to be.But we look at the adjacent islands;we've examined Akutan and examined Umnak Island,which lie -- -the islands adjacent to either side.They both have chlorides --alkali chloride springs.And geothermometry of both of those situations,at the Akutan site we're hitting 100 degree reservoir temperatures; 180 degrees centigrade reservoir temperatures at Akutan. systemp;wetre hitting 210 degree centigrade reservoir temperatures at the Umnak system.Both of these spring systems occur near the val---on the valley floors,and near sea level, okay?They're way down low,versus here at Makushin.We haven't found evidence:of any sort of thermal activity down at either one of these --any one of these valleys here.They may exist;we just don't see 'em at the surface.The point is that on Akutan and Umnak the erosion has gotten us down to where we can examine the reservoir waters.If there's any sort of similarity between the rock types and structure,and so on, between the islands adjacent to this,then you're liable to expect total (Indiscernible)around 2000 or less.That's what we're seeing at the surface of these two sites. MR.HUTTRER:TDS? MR.MOTYKA:Yes. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -140- MR.HUTTRER:What's the chloride? MR.MOTYKA:Chliorides are running around -- there's a table on the back of this thing here,composite table, gives you the chemistry of all those sites.Maybe we should examine here --let's see,do we say?Chlorides are running 600 to 630,max-- maximum.That's on the Umnak site.That's the hotter of the two islands. Another comment based --referring to the potential hazards in that zone,in additionto all the other ones,we've also got the occurrence of lots of glacier ice and snow,which is always going to make things a little more difficult in terms of mud flows,and the speed of how these things come down the mountain.You're dealing in a pretty hazardous area. MR.ISSELHARDT:Roman --Isselhardt --could it --could it possibly be that there may be a --a sort of a fresher water lens at about maybe 2000 TDS overlying a salt water type thing similar to.... MR.MOTYKA:That may very well be..... MR.ISSELHARDT:.....(Indiscernible,due to simultaneous speech). MR.MOTYKA:....and that's one of our possible interpretations there.That's what we're sampling,just that we have a stratified saline reservoir at depth that you're. getting without heating the overlying moderately alkaline -- not moderate --moderately saline reservoir above it.And if R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W,3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -141- you're doing that,then your corridors(ph)have got to be pretty hot.If you're hitting - actually,the sulfuric water actually tells you (Indiscernible)for Umnak Island,it's 260 degrees centigrade.|And you have what --270 p.p.m.silica in that particular system,which is pretty high. One other point --okay,the other piece of evidence. we've been using just to tie in --trying to tie in the waters to meteoric origin is the oxygen isotope and deuterium isotopes. All the data we have so far indicates that everything coming out of there is meteoric water.And we do have a little bit of problem when you're using oxygen isotopes in the Aleutians,in that Bering Sea water is --their oxygen isotope and deuterium tag(ph)is close to that of meteoric water.I don't know why that is;probably because the salinity there isn't as great as for the Pacific Ocean.The Pacific Ocean side gives you --they're always pretty close to midoceanic water. But the Bering Sea side is pretty close to the cold waters we sampled right off the island.So,if you're getting a recharge(ph)from the system from the Bering Sea side --so far we don't see anything coming in --from any of the sites we've looked at on the Pac---on the Aleutian arc,there's no oceanic tag as far as we can tell from the oxygen isotopes on the Pacific side.If you're getting sight of oceanic tag -- oceanic water influence --sea water influence,it's got to come from the Bering Sea side.We can't differentiate between that R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 10%SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 «277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 Tee ee -142- meteoric water right now. Some other --one other topic I want to bring up -- perhaps tomorrow would be a better time --regards what sort of is done in Akutan,and perhaps Atka,too.We'tve got the potential for some exploratory drilling at the Akutan site, which seems to be another really choice candidate.But since this is really here pretty much a view towards Makushin,I won't involve us in that.That's all I've got to say.Is there any questions? MR.HUTTRER:We'll probably have more questions tomorrow if we go into some detail on sampling,and some discussions about expanding the work,modifying,getting some: more data. MR.MOTYKA:I should comment on one more thing. I did take a --try to do a random sample in the Driftwood Bay area to see if I could pick up any sort of tags of thermal waters seeping out,and I could find none.You may want to continue that,see if you see anything there,but I couldn't find any evidence of thermal.... MR.HUTTRER:That's possible. MR.MOTYKA:......in the Driftwood --at least, the Driftwood Bay area. MR.HUTTRER:Did you feel that your helium survey was useful?Did you delineate any major fractures that were not known previously? R &R COURT REPORTERS N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE°'Dy 0872 +277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 coreg -143- MR.MOTYKA:The helium soil survey was done by the Institute.The oxygen --the helium isotope ratios were done on the fumaroles,but Gene and..... MR,HUTTRER:oh,Gene's going to address that. MR.MOTYKA:......Don will talk to the soil survey.Do you want to mention anything about that? MR.HUTTRER:Well,why don't we just wait a moment until Gene does his thing,or Don.Thank you very much. Carol,why don't we go off the record for a-second. .(OFF THE RECORD) (ON THE RECORD) MR.HUTTRER:If we could have attention,I think we'll hear Gene Wescott from the Geophysical Institute discuss some of the aspects of geophysics that were --with which he's been associated,related to the Unalaska project. MR.WESCOTT:For the past three years the Geophysical Institute has been involved in the USDOE funded State coupled geothermal resource assessment program.And as part of our program last summer we were doing a survey of Unalaska and Akutan Islands,in cooperation with the State DGGS. We spent most of our time on Unalaska at Summer Bay,doing a -- quite an extensive suite of geophysics and geochemistry there, and I won't go into any details on that,since it's not really pertinent to this meeting.And we also did extensive geophysical work and geochemistry out at Akutan. R &R COURT REPORTERS 610 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -144- We had one day with a helicopter,the day we were moving out of Summer Bay.And Don Turner and I went up to the top of Makushin Valley to see what we could do in terms of a preliminary helium,mercury,and VLS survey.We took a traverse,which we'll get to.We were doing primarily helium and mercury,those being two things that in the past we've found to be useful and very pertinent to geothermal here in Alaska.We've done helium work at Chena Hot Springs,Pilgrim Hot Springs on the Seward Peninsula,Manley Hot Springs,and out in the Aleutians,just recently in the Willow area.In all of these instances we've found that helium appears to be an extremely good indicator of the circulation of hot water.Helium is unusual in its solubility in water,in that it has a minimum solubility at about 30 degrees centigrade,and then rises after that.So, hot water is an extremely good scavenger of --of helium,and the helium is released if the water rises towards the surface, and cools,and depressurizes.In the granitic type of terrain in the interior of Alaska,where we have hot springs like Manley Hot Springs,Chena Hot Springs,and on the Seward Peninsula,we find quite large helium anomalies.|The source of the helium is uranius thorium(ph)in the rocks from where the hot water is,is -the water's being heated.And so you have a large --a large source there.Out in the Aleutians the rocks are quite low in uranium thorium generally,so the source is lower than it is at the hot springs we've sampled in the R&R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8843 272-7813 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -145- interior..However,it appears from our work that there are helum anomalies associated with hot springs in the Aleutians. Let's have the first slide,if you please,and the lights out. This is a map of the near surface resistivity at Summer Bay.Here are the warm springs,some warm ground here, in an area of low resistivity near the surface.These are the two wells that John spoke of.Just keep this in mind.Let's see the next slide.Next slide,please. This is a map of the helium soil samples in this same area.Here are the hot springs,or warm springs.Hot ground over in here,and the two wells.We generally find that there's a helium anomaly here,6.11 parts per million,which is hot ground here,and the same sort of anom---can you focus that -- yeah - 6.7 in a water sample,6.51 in water,and generally waters tend to run higher.There is a soil sample,6.11 here near the hot springs,and some reasonably anomalous values, 5.87,5.72,kind of out in this area where the real low resistivity was.Here's 5.69,5.52.5.24 is the normal air concentration of helium 4,and we're sort of considering anything above 5.4 parts per million to be anomalous.Generally out in this region where the reservoir--it's a shallow water reservoir,appears to be confined to this region here -- generally the higher helium values are here and off into here, where nothing is going on,there aren't any.Next slide? This shows the same EM-31 near surface resistivity map R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 +277-0573 277-8843 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 Sheieten snadeeieated -146- at Akutan Island,where we have a number of hot springs along the valley,and clear down to the beach.And the resistivity anomaly shows a sinuous type of pattern,paralleling sort of the edge of the valley here.May be fault controlled,and the actual structures here may be due to the near surface stream channels,which may have existed in the valley.Keep this in mind.The next slide we'll look at the helium. These are helium values here at Akutan.As Roman has said,the temperatures here --the geothermometry indicates that this is a high temperature resource.The geophysics also indicate that there's an extensive reservoir here of very low resistivity,and probably quite extensive.Anyway,the helium values,6.12,5.64,5.6,5.33.Highest value is 6.12.And generally following the trend of the valley here.I don't have slides,but at both of these places we took some mercury samples as well,which we analysed with a Jerome Instruments(ph)goldfilm type of helium detector.-Okay,the next slide shows what we -- our sum total of work up on Makushin.Well,it really doesn't, that's a (Inaudible). We had a helicopter one day,and the weather was quite grim,and we were almost at the ceiling point,and it was of some concern whether we were going to get stuck up there.And as I said,we only had it this one day,so what we did was we took the helicopter to #one fumarole field on John"s map and got a quick helium mercury sample there.And then we flew back to R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 nn Sane -147- where the old road was.And then we started walking back towards fumarole #one.By the end of the day we'd gotten this far,and John --Don Turner thought that this was a volcanic feature,a neck(ph),and though I was tired he urged me to come up there. And we --we did find when I took a helium sample somewhere in here that the probe came out of the ground quite hot.And then we dug around and actually found nice places to put our feet down in here to warm up.But anyway,this is as far as we got. The next slide shows the summary of our data.Could you focus that,please?Here we go.Okay,here is the Makushin Valley,and this goes on out,down towards Unalaska,down this way.Here's the old road,and then it goes off down into Driftwood Bay.Here's Sugarloaf Cone.We took our first sample down here at the fumarole #one field.The helium sample that I grabbed was in cold clay.It was not hot.And it's probably not characteristic,really,of the fumarole field,I didn't have time to do more.Reasonably high mercury,128 parts per billion. Then we started here and made a traverse across this --I guess it's a flow unit off of Sugarloaf.The ground is reasonably porous,and it's quite easy to get a helium probe in,and also to do a --an auger type sample.The helium samples are indicated as a soil or a gas,and then in parts per --parts per million helium.This sample right here is the bigee(sic).This is the biggest one we found in all the Aleutians in our limited experience.So,I would consider that this --you know --this R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -148- area right here should be investigated further.It's reasonably interesting.Right next door an extremely low mercury sample, slightly abnormal helium sample.Helium samples in here where it says gas --we were having trouble with our gas bottles that day,and we put it greater than or equal to 5.22 when it's a gas sample.5.57,that's anomalous;5.71 anomalously high; 5.23 is at background;5.23 --and here at the hot ground,5.81, which is reasonably hot,also.And also a high mercury value. I didn't take mercury samplesat all these sites.The mercury was just sort of a grab sample to see what it goes.So,this is the sum total of our experience here on Makushin.We do feel that helium is a very good indicator,and I would highly recommend that a helium sampling survey be done.It's not terribly expensive,and in general,in our work in Alaska we've found that mercury tends to fluctuate a great deal,but generally where you have a helium anomaly,that's --you know -- it's significant._ I did try VLF instruments up in here,but we were on the north side of Makushin,and I couldn't get them to be of any use because of the interference of the Makushin Volcano in the direction that they're going. I guess that's about all I have to say. MR.HUTTRER:Gene,could you estimate how far a team of people who are well trained in collecting helium or mercury surveys could move in a day?How many kilometers could R&R COURT REPORTERS GION STREET.SUITE 10t S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7513 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 N,eg-149- they cover across average terrain,averagely difficulty? MR.WESCOTT:Well,this terrain up in here is quite easy to walk on.There are these gulleys,and these were filled --we did this in about the middle of July.These gulleys were still filled with snow.And some of them we sort of had to walk back around to get on.But this area up in here is quite easy.And if you had a whole day,you could probably cover about twice as much ground as we did this one time.This is about --oh,let's see.We probably got started about 10:00, was it,Don? MR.TURNER:Yeah,well,we had about a half a day to work.We got picked up early that day. MR.WESCOTT:Yeah,this is about a half a day's WOrKkK,SO..ees MR.TURNER:Two people. MR.WESCOTT:....and in reasonably good walking ground.There'snoproblem at all walking around up in here,and the sampling was quite good.We didn't get as far as trying to get over in here,and obviously,we'would have had difficulty getting through some of these canyons.You would've had to walk around 'em or do quite a bit of climbing in here. But I suspect that people on foot can really do quite a --quite a good job of walking around it --you know. MR.REEDER:Jerry,this is John Reeder.I'd like to make one comment.The traverse that Gene and Don R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0973 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -150- took is probably --terrain-wise,probably the easiest that you'd find compared to anything else.The real killer,of course,is the canyons,getting around. MR.HUTTRER:Still,how many kilometers a day could you --could you traverse,just on a guess?If you're going to take samples,let's say,every 100 meters,how many meters --how many samples could you take in a day if you plodded right along and just kept at it steadily,and weren't out racing?Are we talking about covering.... MR.WESCOTT:Twenty or thirty samples. MR.HUTTRER:Like two or three miles of walking a day? MR.WESCOTT:Depends on how many samples you take,'cause --you know --it does take --does take time to take a sample. MR.HUTTRER:Sure. MR.TURNER:-You know,ome limitation is that we find in general that it's better to take a soil core and auger down a meter if you can - take a soil core out and then can it --you know --with a regular canner,and a #10 can,So you're physically limited by the numberof thesexthings you can carry around.Of course,if you had caches dropped the helicopter ahead of the sampling party,it'd go much faster.It takes about --oh,15 minutes at a site --20 minutes to do one of those,and it takes about 5 minutes to do a gas sample if you R &R COURT REPORTERS °SION STREET.SUITE 101 SO@ W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 9950! -151- can push your probe down in and get a good sample out.Should be mentioned that the analytical work is all handled commercially by Western Systems,Incorporated,in Evergreen,Colorado.And their rate is $30.00 per analysis.This includes providing all field sampling equipment and containers,and air mail -- air freight shipment back to the lab,and rapid turn-around of data while you're in the field.We were able to get data back while we were in the field,which helped us plan the rest of our survey. MR.HUTTRER:That quickly? MR.TURNER:Yes.It just worked extremely well. And they - they gave us a discount on the sampling as well, because they were interested in having this proved(ph)in geothermal prospecting.It hadn't been used very much before we started doing it for this purpose,certainly not in Alaska. We should also mention that there are two or three reports which give considerable detailsof our experience with the helium technique at Chena Hot Springs and on the Seward Peninsula,and they're available to anyone who'd like to have them from-the Geophysical Institute library.You can find the fault controlled conduit system at Chena Hot Springs just right on with helium, no trouble whatsoever.Works beautifully. MR.HUTTRER:Do you have any opinion as to the validity of using SP in this sort of an area?Are you thin--- do you think there'd be too much trouble caused by the thorium (ph) R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -152- corrections?We're talking about some very steep terrain,and your traverses have to be constantly linked together,and circular return to one station type traverses.Aside from that, do you see any --any problems in using a self potential? MR.WESCOIT;Not if it's done the right time of year,I don't think you'd have any problem actually carrying it out.There are going to be severe terrain corrections for any sort of electrical or self potential work.We did a fair amount of resistivity work at both Akutan and Summer Bay,but no self potential work.The --the terrain --what we're looking at is the gentlest terrain up there,so -=you know --the terrain when you get up into this fumarole #one field and the other ones is really quite severe.As to the validity --you know -- what you would get out of a self potential survey,I really don't know.It might be --it might be of use in looking at a large scale convection system within the volcano.I --I personally would probably recommend doing some deep resisitivity on the areas maybe picked out by the geochemical work to see -- see if you have really low resistivities at depth,which would give you some idea about --you know --the drilling depths,toa. MR.HUTTRER:You prefer MT,or are yqu talking about Schlumberger soundings,or..... MR.WESCOTT:Probably in this terrain MT would be a reasonable thing to do if one has --you know --the equipment,and software,and what-not,to do it.We --we R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 "aay? -153- don't.We're set up to do galvanic resistivity and AMT.So that my thinking is probably colored by what --what I've got. MR.HUTTRER:It's also quite expensive.That's one of the problems we're finding...... MR.WESCOTT:Yeah..... MR.HUTTRER:......very,very expensive. MR.WESCOTT:.....you're talking about MT is expensive? MR.HUTTRER:Yes. MR.WESCOTT:Yeah. MR.ISSELHARDT:'This is Isselhardt again.I just want to know what kind of soils developed over there.Is it white --is there enough soil developed over most of the area to enable you to get good samples for mercury and so on? MR.WESCOTT:Why don't we back up the slides to one slide of Roman's picture.What you see is what you get. MR.ISSELHARDT:.Is that typical? MR.WESCOTT:That's typical for that region, because I --I haven't --you know --been on the rest of Makushin,but --you know --there's no nice soil profile like you get:on the Lower '48 where you have layers A,B,and C,and you can consistently sample layer C.The wind blows soil away, and sometimes we --the grass holds it down.And there are sort of swamps up in here where the ground is --you know -- perpetually wet.This soil was relatively porous,and you R&R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE °1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.4LASKA 99501 -154- could get a--a --you could drive a probe down here.And the augering wasn't bad --I mean,it does take time,but the augering wasn't bad.As I recall,the soil tended to be fairly sticky,didn't it,Don?Didn't we have..... MR.TURNER:Well,there's a fair amount of clay --this is Turner.What you're looking at there is enameling (ph)of generally basaltic and andesitic ash and scoria,which in part is going to clay.But you don't have any thick --what you could actually call soil development there, but it is --it is soft enough to get down into it,except where you're right on top of that very young flow and outcrop. But even within that there are pockets of ash and scoria weathering to clay that do give you something you could take a sample out of.I don't think there'd be any problem with getting a mercury sampling grid in this particular country we didn't have much trouble doing our helium sampling as well, which involves getting down a meter.Sometimes you'd have to look --you know --several places around a site before you could get it down. MR.HUTYRER:.Were those andesites in the picture particularly silicified?This is Hettrer. MR.WESCOTT:I don't recall any hydrothermal alteration coming up through cracks in that stuff itself.It"s pretty massive andesite;light gray,porphyritic andesite,as I recall,typical pagioclase and Pyroxene phenocryst. R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 155- There's no -this thing looks like a volcanic neck if you're 200 yards back down the hill,particularly because of that cairn that got piled up on the left.But when you walk up on it, other than the hydro---hydrothermal alteration down slope and the hot ground,there's no real evidence of an eruptive center there.There's also a lot of basaltic scoria mantling the slopes that's actually on top of the thin.soil development there.Further down hill --I thought perhaps when I saw it from far away it was coming from this thing that lookedlike a little volcanic neck,but it's probably come from Sugarloaf or somewhere else.There's no evidence that it's come from here when you actually get up on top of it.There is right in the area of this hot zone quite a bit of alteration to clay.It was you know --white and red,and what-not. MR.HUTTRER:It looks as if --I can't tell who that is standing there,but that man is standing on a slight rise.It appears to be slightly different type of soil than perhaps a few yards away.Is that --is that an illusion? MR.WESCOTT:Probably so.There is an altered --altered zone in here,which is the hot area. MR.MOTYKA:This is Roman.You have the zone of high temperatures that's fairly well confined to kind of an oval-shaped area right in front here.We couldn't trace it in behind.It was fairly at the top of this,but didn't continue on at the back side.Now,we're only going down 20,25 R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 oo themes aan ee ee ee ee -156- centimeters.If you --if you've got a core log(ph)or something like that,you could probably do it much better --much more accurate temperature contouring than we did. MR.HUTTRER:That's a remarkable temperature down there at that depth. MR.WESCOTT:Yeah,this thing's located immediately west of Sugarloaf cone,just --what --a few hundred yards. MR.yUuTTRER:Was there any faulting that was visible readily? MR.WESCOTT:We weren't looking for that.We didn't.see it.We could have.... MR..MOTYKA:.John said he plotted he a fault.... MR.WESCOTT:.....easily overlooked it. MR,MOTYKA:.....through this,didn't you,John? MR.REEDER:Yeah,this is John.Yeah,I plotted a fault going right through there,and going to the north side of Sugarloaf.Basically,alteration:wise, it's extended(ph)across --I mean,(Inaudible,away from mike) fault.Whereyou actually see the fault is on the slope about a half kilometer away from this,we see a very pronounced feature where the fault is.And it does turn into an area where there's been recent volcanics also up on Makushin,on the flanks of Makushin. MR.HUTTRER:Can I ask whether you had the R&R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 157- faults in there before the helium discovery or after? MR.REEDER:It was --it was after. MR.'HUTTRER:John,would you care to make any comments about the gravity picture in this area? MR.REEDER:Yeah,I --what I'll do,I'll just simply pull out the map,and just talk about it real quick. What I have here is a very rough map on the gravity.Believe it or not,the data I collected back in 1980 '--I spent a good part of my time last summer just doing geology in the Makushin region as well as running a field camp at Summer Bay and Akutan Island.on a cooperative basis with the Geophysical Institute.But back in 1980 I did collect a lot of gravity data.And I'm just going to tack this up on the wall. MR.HUTTRER:Carol,why don't we shut down for a moment. (OFF THE RECORD) (ON THE RECORD) MR.REEDER:This is a real rough map,where I applied the Bouguer gravity anomaly.We need to refine the data a little bit.But basically what happened back .in 1980 was I did a lot of gravity work,mainly concentrating along the coast because of elevation control,and I did stick my neck out a little bit and did a fair amount of work in the mainland part of the island,including Makushin Volcano.And this is actually where I got a lot of my control for constructing the R &R COURT REPORTERS B10ON STREET.SUITE 10%SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 995301 158- topography on the volcano as well as doing gravity.I wasn't sure if I was really going to get anything out of it or not, mainly because I was concerned about elevation control.But it looks like we are actually getting something out of it.And of course,what you see here is a general gradient in the gravity. This is contoured here in about 10 milligal,and this trend is most likely related to subduction of the plate.And there are some deviations in here which I don't quite understand,like the gradient on the southern part of the island seems to be a lot wider,gentler than it is on the northern part up in here. That may have something to do with just the local rocks.-The Unalaska formation becomes more sedimentary type down here, volcanic up here.It might have something to do with the plate. But anyway,that's probably more academic than --than what I've got here.One of the problems with this map is I do have something like ninety-two data points.There are gaps in the map,so what I've got drawn here is quite generalized.I think the really significant feature is the Makushin volcano itself. What's interesting about this is that we have a very large gravity anomaly low sitting on part of the caldera complex of» Makushin,but not the whole thing.And again,what's interesting about it is that it appears to be trending in a northeast type direction,and it seems to involve the northeast side,the east side,and sort of the southern side of the caldera complex,and probably is - I haven't done any sophisticated R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -159- modeling with this,but most.likely this is where most of the material came out during this eruption,and this is probably a lot of pyroclastic fill within a this part of the calderas where over in here you probably still have either remnant magma or solidified rock still sitting in your volcanic complex...The low that we get over here is probably due more to just the filling of pyroclastics and lava,the more recent stuff occurring over in here.But anyway,there are some interesting anomalies.Yeah,Gene? MR.WESCOTT:Yeah,Gene.Are these terrain- corrected,or are these raw? ) MR.REEDER:No,terrain corrections are in progress.I have not made terrain corrections on this.I might also add,too,if you really want to do some refined modeling on this,there probably will be a lot of problems with elevation control on these.On some of these traverses I made with a gravimeter we did have problems with gravity.I don't have that good of control in elevation. MR.WESCOTT:But what are those contours, 10 milligal? MR.REEDER:That's correct. MR.HUTTRER:Is there regional information available for the regional gradient,Gene? MR.WESCOTT:I'm sure there is.I don't know exactly who has it. R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 nanees Tae Sodeemainamnaseieniie ae ee ee -160- MR.MOTYKA:The Lamont Observatory folks.just came out with a regional gravity map.I think it covers Makushin. } MR.HUTTRER:We can get a residual map,anyway, accurate or inaccurate as it is,and pull the regional out of it.Are there any other geophysical related discussions that anybody would like to bring up? MS.DeJONG:(Inaudible,away from mike) MR.HUTTRER:Well,I could go into that ina little bit of detail,try to take a very brief amount of time -- short amount of time.Let me just stand up and use that viewgraph machine for a second.I'll show you the results of a survey that Republic contracted for just recently. This is a survey that I have purposefully changed so that it's relatively anonymous because it involves some proprietary data.I didn't feel like I was too threatened by bringing it to Alaska because we're working in the Lower '48.on this prospect But this is an area in which we have a series of very,very useful volcanics.We're :dealing in rhyolites and basalt flows, some of which are less than seven hundred years old.We have got a non-caldera situation.There's no immediate sign of collapse in this region,and yet we're not very far away;we're just off the main trend.I would say we are inland from the main subduction trend.I can't say too much,because I'll give away the location of this,but suffice it to say that it's not R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 $09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 993801 te ea ne et a mote oe ST nr te ee ee 161- terribly far from the --the West Coast.You can probably guess what the target is in here if you care to.What we did was to run looped SP traverses all over this prospect.The prospect itself consists of at least --oh,I'd say 100 square miles that were covered,perhaps more than that. MR.YARTER:It's more than that;it's about 250 square miles. MR.HUTTRER:Well,total,250 --we didn't traverse all of that,but we traversed at least 110,120 square miles.And the total cost to us for that thing was about $60,000.00.That's quite --quite inexpensive. MR.ISSELHARDT:For about 180 line miles. MR.HUTTRER:Was it that many line miles,180? Well,so that gives you an idea of what the cost per line mile was.It's not terribly expensive.And that included all interpretation of the data by people that we consider to be very,very good at it and state of the art.What this showed us in this terrain --now,the terrain's not quite as steep as it is in Alaska,and we're dealing with a situation where resistivities were extremely high at the surface because the ground was covered with a lot of pumice --they had a lot of trouble getting reproducible data,and we found a very large feature,a self potential --positive self potential anomaly that was remarkably coherent and circular in shape.We also found a huge low feature that looked like it was caused by a -- R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 en egep me Se RR mee ee gueeg eee oo we eeeeee 24 25 -162- perhaps a single point anomaly,perhaps something of :the.order of a dyke or a type of volcanic neck.And we also found a persistent series of dyke holes in which you had low SP -- negative SP features off here to the east,and the big positive off to the west.We also had the only overt geothermal manifestations in this entire area were located along the zone between the negatives and the positives.This has been interpreted to indicate the existence of a large fault or faults that may actually comprise part of a caldera or a collapse zone,hit we're not postulating such a thing.Others -- other workers suggest.that maybe there ts a collapse zone.At any rate,we're getting the east side of a geologic feature here mapped out very clearly.We don't know whether sucha fault dips to the west or to.the east,or vertically.That's -- there are two different models that could obtain here.But for the moment,suffice..itto say that this --this feature is important,and it joins up very,very spectacularlywithbasin and range faultings --normal faultings that can be projected in from this direction.So,this is a real feature that was identified very well by the SP. There's another feather that can be tracked across here between some very young volcanic flows,and some slightly older volcanic flows.And again,this feature is --can be seen on the surface;it's reflected in some explosion craters and phreatic features,some of which actually trend a little bit R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SOS W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,4LASKA 99501 aoeheatiehetieneliidiaenaetnedaainer bert ee -wt ee nee ce ceceaetes Fe -163- more down this way,but there are some features that cut across.This particular linear separates some --excuse me -- it doesn't separate it,it occurs directly on a line of very, very prominent fractures in the earth.You can walk here,and all of a sudden the ground is simply cracked apart.And there are numerous --I guess you'd have to call 'em rifts and cave-like featuresthatexist all along this line.So,finally, there's one more feature that we haven't mapped down here as a single solitary fault,but you have two fragments,one here, and one here.It may be that there's a large and important feature that separates the --the big low from the big high. This trend on which my pen in lying actually can be traced back to the southwest,directly along a line of small explosion craters,directly back to a major volcano.So,the point of my standing here for a few minutes is to say for $60,000.00 we explored perhaps 180 line miles in moderately --I won't say it was rugged terrain.It's certainly not flat country,and it is accessible compared to Makushin.But we obtained:a great deal of structural information that stands up very well with the models of a resource that we have been able to put together on the basis of mercury and geologic observation.We've also covered this area with how many---1,500 or 1,600 mercury samples,so that we've combined the SP's,the mercury,and the geologic data in order to get a very interesting and,as I say,coherent picture.It does make sense,they all mirror one R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-6543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 epeecnacee ne en en ee ee oe ee eee we rene eggggee eer re tet ee a ee -164- another. MR.ISSELHARDT:Jerry,I'd like to..... MR.HUTTRER:Sure,Corky. MR.ISSELHARDT:.....this is Isselhardt again. I think we ought to make the point here that --specifically, that be mercury soil survey coincides quite well with the SP anomaly as.well --there's also some gravity work that's been done recently by the USGS that also fits very nicely.And also in Japan we've run the SP surveys,and --well,three or four areas similar --these are all volcanic --areas of volcanic terrain,andesitic,basaltic,and rhyolitic volcanism.And the work in Japan,in conjunction with the MT and mercury soil surveys again show very good correlations between the three methods and other methods,gravity as well as --in some cases we have air mag.,but this is.also --SP is also used in --you know --in Hawaii,and was used very successfully in Hawaii in the HGPA geothermal project.there.So,we feel quite good about using self potential,especially in volcanic terrain,although there --on Makushin there will be problems with the terrain corrections. MR.WESCOTT:This is Wescott.What's the physical basis of the soil po---of the self potential anomaly like that? MR.HUTTRER:Well,I mean,you have several different --as you're probably far more aware than I am,there R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -165- appear to be two major causes of geophys---or SP anomalies. One is a thermal electric feature where you have differences in potential on two sides of a feature that are caused by temperature related phenomena.The other is what they call a streaming potential,which may be due to rising or falling of thermal or non-thermal waters.And the objective,as I understand it,in self-potential work is to seek anomalies,not worrying particular --particularly whether they're electrical positives or electrical negatives,but to seek anomalous situations.There is --there are some rules of thumb which say that topographic highs usually relate to electrical lows, and vice versa.And there are a few other conditions that seem to hold up with a fair mount of regularity.But other than that,the SP method concentrates on the identification of electrically anomalous features without too much regard to their polarity.And these features are caused by either the difference in heating,or the difference in thermal conductivity on either side of a feature like a fault,or to potential set-up by physical motion --electron motion caused by upward or downward movement of hot or cold waters. MR.WESCOTT:In this case here would you think it was the streaming potential that was producing the big ones? MR.HUTTRER:Here?I think you --I can't answer that with assurance,I really can't.It's an area with very high rainfall,of precipitation.The volcanics are R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,4LASKA 99501 24 25 -166- extremely porous.These fractures are very large,and there's every chance in the world that you could have good movement of fluids on these --on the faults.On the other hand,we think it's an excellent geothermal target,and that there's a good chance that heat can be encountered at less than a kilometer in this area.On the third hand,the ground water table here is over 4,000 feet --at an elevation of 4,000 feet,almost 3,000 feet --in excess of 3,000 feet from the --the highest point. So,you've got almost three-fifths of a mile of dry rock, essentially dry rock,which could preclude streaming potentials. So,I --I'm playing devil's advocate with myself,arguing both sides of it.I don't know the answer.We'd like to think it was a heat related anomaly.And the people with whom we've worked believe that it's a heat related anomaly.They have done work in Long Valley(ph),in Hawaii,and in Alaska,I believe. In fact,I know they've done work here,too.And I would bring the same contractor in to work at Makushin. MR.ISSELHARDT:This is Isselhardt again.We did --they did some modeling for us,and the large positive could --could easily be a heat source at about 2 kilometers, no deeper than 2 kilometers.And the large negative to the negative to the north,slightly northwest,appears to be conceivably a stream potential type thing,we think of as the volcanic neck that the fluids are diving down a breccia pipe or something of that nature.That seems to fit that very R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 24 25 -167- nicely.But there are several models that were used for the dipolar or bipolar anomalies that model very nicely as planes, and so on.You know,it's anybody's guess until we drill a hole,but you always have two possibilities.But it looks -- it looks quite promising.It's one of the largest SP anomalies in total amplitude,peak to peak,that's ever been recorded. MR,HUEERER:Everybody we've talked to says it's the largest one they have ever seen.And these are people that have done the only SP work that's been done to date.We're not stuck on it.We do think it's very cost effective,and we'd like your input,especially geophysicists and people who have had experience.I hear you when I hear you talking about helium,mercury.MT,I hear you again,but my wallet hurts when I think of it. MR.ISSELHARDT:Let me say a word about MT. We've done a lot of MT in Japan,and some of the data is excellent,and some of it's not so good.And it's very good to interpret MT.It's very difficult to interpret any of these geophysical methods. MR.WESCOTT:Yeah,it takes 3-D --3-D modeling. MR.ISSELHARDT:Right,and nobody has 3-D modeling for MT that's really usable;not on a commercial side,anyway.And in fact,even 2-D is very,very rare.Most R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-6543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 oie tn a a ee NE ner ne ee ee 24 25 -168- of it's 1-D inversions,and you jump from there.And the other problem is a good interpretation with MT usually requires that you have at least one bore hole to give you some idea - with an electrical log in it. MS.DeJONG:Either Corky or Jerry --this is Patti --if we were to use a combination of more detailed gravity and SP,for instance,are the terrain corrections similar?Do you use the..... MR.HUTTRER:Well..... MS.DeJONG:....is there an advantage to taking the same data points? MR.HUTTRER: ...-Oh,yeah.I mean,you would be duplicating effort if you did it twice.For gravity,you'd have to get your elevations as = really fairly accurately. MS.DeJONG:And we --we would have to do some more detailed topographic control,including the aerials -- the photos?_ MR.ISSELHARDT:If you're talking about doing a really good gravity survey,you have to good --have excellent vertical control and horizontal control. MR.HUTTRER:Just using the..... MR.WESCOTT:...Couple of inches. MR.ISSELHARDT:.Otherwise,you.... MS.DeJONG:Could you also take your drilling samples..... R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 169- MR.ISSELHARDT:.....are in deep trouble. MS.DeJONG:......at the same data points? MR.WESCOTT:Oh,yeah,but you don't need near the kind of control.... MS.DeJONG:Is it overkill? MR.WESCOTT:.....you need..... MR.ISSELHARDT:No,not for SP.SP requires you can --you can get the obvious terrain corrections out of -- out of SP by just simply plotting your millivolts versus elevation,and oftentimes they fall out into a nice band or plot or curve,or whatever,and you can draw a line that will -- that you canimake your corrections from.And like in this case that Jerry shows you,normally you have --with high topography you have an SP low,when in our case we had an SP high with a high topography,so it was obvious that there wasn't too much terrain corrections involved.And in fact,we ran some profiles through the area,and looked at the terrain and the elevation versus the values for the SP,and determined there really was no terrain correction involved.Now,you can do that much more simply than you can for some other things,like gravity. MR.HUTTRER:We're going to need elevation control in here sooner or later anyway.I mean,we're going to need to put in some reasonable control.Whether we do it with altimeters and have a base station back at --at a camp down in R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 170- Driftwood Valley,or a camp at Dutch where we've got a control on the barometric pressure,you've got to keep checking back in.There are --there are good ways and there are bad ways to get elevation.Surveying - they are expensive and inexpensive. And it's just going to depend on what our wallets say that we can do as far as the degree of precision that we can obtain. Sooner or later when we're doing testing for the wells,for a deep well,we're going to have to know what elevation we're sitting at.And it makes quite a difference as far as the -- the flow of the --of the well --the calculations that you makeJ So,it relates not only to the well testing,but to the geophysics and to our geologic mapping.All of it's tied together. | MR.ISSELHARDT:I think the most important -- probably the best way to do it is to get good air photos -- low level air photos,and have topographic maps made.You need to go out,and you have to-set some --some cross panels with elevation control,with altimeters,or whatever,and then do a good aerial survey.And it may take us a year to get a good aerial survey --I don't know. MS.DeJONG:I'm a little concerned with when it comes to getting the air photos.How long are we willing to wait and gamble that we'll be able to get them? MR.ISSELHARDT:Well,I think we should try and set it up as soon as possible,where we think there'll be a -- R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 serrate wee es ee cg ne nretaryeee Bee "171- conceivably a weather window.And if we're really lucky,we may get one before the field work starts.But from what I've heard, I seriously doubt that's going to happen.But at some point we --we are definitely going to have to have a good topographic map and good air photos.And I think even if it takes a year of waiting,that we should sort of be on call,so to speak,with somebody so that when the occasion arises --and maybe we can make some kind of joint deal with the State or the USGS,or -- as we said,sell 'em the photos afterwards,but we - when we do our field work initially we can use altimeters or some other --and use some obvious topographic mark like Sugarloaf or something,and measure some good altitudes and.--on different days,.and check it. MS.DeJONG:You mean..... MR.ISSELHARDT:And lay out our grid,and then do our surveys.And then when we finally do get the air photos and stuff,we can tie all that back to a couple of good base stations that we have good controls on.That's the least expensive and probably the most efficient way to do it. MR.MOTYKA:I had one quick thing to add --thig air photo map --obtaining aerial photos --you do have a constraint --this is Motyka speaking.You'd have a constraint of the snow cover.It's really difficult to do topographic mapping when you have a snow cover.So,you're talking about into summertime before you can even start thinking about flying R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -172- that area.And are you going to do something about photo air control?Are you going to put up markers? MR.ISSELHARDT:You'll have to ask.... MR.HUTTRER:That's another subject.You've got to have markers,and you may have to put dye markers out on the snow if even to.give you some kind of 3-dimensional feature to it.Yes,there'll have to be field controls for flying,and that'll have to be laid out. MR.ISSELHARDT:Well,I think if we wait --if wait until --you know --in the summer or whenever it's feasible,depending on what the weather's like this year,during one of our field parties,or perhaps during the thermal gradient drilling,part of the program will be a geologist or somebody out there - we could lay out some black panels or white panels, or whatever,just simply big strips of plastic --I've done this before for big aerial surveys,and it --the best thing to do is to put these panels on really prominent topographic features as you can,and then something between or something.You don't have to have a whole lot of 'em --we're not talking about a huge area,actually,to --that we need the detail on,but it can be done quite reasonably,I think.Just being prepared and planning ahead of time is the trick. MS.DeJONG:I've got a question for Roman,or anybody who's been out there.Are there some years when the snow cover just never goes away?Or how far down does it come R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 vere or ce wwe mee eee ee a ee -173- by what time of the year? MR.MOTYKA:Well,last year was a good example of a pretty heavy snow cover.As they were saying,we had snow on'the ravines well into July.And you have to keep track of snow pack,I guess,in the Aleutians in the springtime. Maybe it'll have a good year and clear up early.But if you want topographic control up high in the mountains,you want to wait until well into the summer. MR.HUTTRER:What is the earliest we could expect to get in?This is a different subject a little later, but nevertheless..... MR.MOTYKA:You could probably get in right now if you wanted to. MR,HUTTRER:could you really? MR.MOTYKA:It depends on what sort of conditions you're willing to work in.I'd say probably May. What do you think,John?... MR.REEDER:Yeah.With respect to air photos, you can't go in there and try to get air photos too early because of the shadow. MR.ISSELHARDT:Probably June or July..... MR.HUTTRER:Yeah,but low-sun-angle pictures wouldbe nice to have,too. MR.REEDER:June is an ideal time for air photos,if you get the good weather.And last summer I would say R &R COURT REPORTERS 7 W.3RO AVENUE10NSTREET,SUITE 10!SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 100.277-0572 +277-0573 277-8543 272-7313 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -174- that probably at elevations of 2,500 feet you actually had areas that were about 50%covered with snow from the last snowfall.But I think that's about the worst you'll ever see. Hopefully that won't happen again. MR.CAREY:From a - this is Dwight Carey. From an outsider's,almost,point of view,as far as the geologic work is concerned,am I hearing you basically say that you can undertake the field work without the topographic models, without the detailed elevations?In fact,you won't even really ever get detailed elevation control?Do -=how --how -=-what is the detail?Are you talking about the kind of detail where you can and do,in fact,a detailed gravity survey,or are you talking about the detail where your --SP correction? MR.ISSELHARDT:It depends on how --this is Isselhardt again --it depends on how large a scale you fly your air photos.If you fly it low enough,and get photos down very close,and ingood quality stereo pairs,you can --they can pick elevations to within about a foot or less --6 inches, maybe,if you want to spend the money to have a topo.map done that well.It's expensive.It's not cheap.But good air photos at a scale of 1 to 24,000 would give us probably good enough elevation control for a decent gravity survey,even if you're only a few feet off,at least the major features would show up.And I think we can --to-answer your first question, we can --we can go in,we can run the surveys as long as we R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-6543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 "175- know what we're going to do ahead of time. MR,HUTTRER::That's right. MR.ISSELHARDT:We tie ourselves into something like Sugarloaf and a couple of other major topo.features that we will come back and put panels on 'em,and fly it.We'll have excellent control,and from there we can just lay it out. And all you do is lay out your compass direction,or whatever, and a grid of flags or however you want to do it.But it's just a matter of planning,basically. , MR.CAREY:It's planning ahead. MR.HUTTRER:We had also plan ahead to move ahead here,unless we have some other comments on geophysics. I think that we'll have time to discuss this,I hope,this week in detail,different things - different questions that will come up.I know that the Republic crew here is planning to ask for the time and help to get together with several of you on your own topics,to expand on what we've heard today,and ask a lot more detailed questions. The next topic,really,is drilling,and it's a large, large topic.I guess the most --the topic of most concern to us,Since drilling is a prime objective in this whole project, is in locating a drill that is suitable in this first year for drilling 2,000 foot holes,and one that is at the same time legistically transportable into where we want to do the work. In order to save a little time,I'll tell you that we have R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-75tS ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 ate --wae eee ee ee ete tne ee ne ne re eee epee on -176- looked into the possibility of doing it with diamond drills; we have examined the possibility of staying with standard air rotaries --air_and/or mud,or water,or foam rotary drills. We have given some thought to trying to build a road into the site.We have given some thought to coming in with helicopter transportable rigs of different sizes.And we have talked about Nodwells,mounting rigs on Nodwells to get 'em up there,and walking them in.We've talked about flying them in and mounting them on Nodwells up there and moving them around.I'm sure there's some other permutations that we can come up with, and we'd solicit comments from any and all of you who have had drilling experience not in the flats,'cause we've done a lot of that,but if you have suggestions concerning mobilization of, acquisition of,and availability of a drill that you think would do the job,we'd sure like to have your input.Dick Yarter is the drilling engineer for Republic,and he's worked on projects, especially oil projects and geothermal projects,all over the world in all sorts of terrain.But I don't think he's ever worked on the side of a volcano in the snow where he can't see where you're going,and there's no road or any access.So, have at it.Anybody who can help us,we're ready to listen. MR.ISSELHARDT:I think,too,if anybody has any suggestions as to contractors,or who --who's a good contractor and who's not a good contractor,or if you have any information as to contractors that might have rigs that are R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W,3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 _-a ee ee nan ct ren te ere ogygay -177- i capable of going,let's say,between 1,000 and 2,000 feet, 2 that's really what we'd like to..... 3 MR.HUTTRER:We don't think that that'd be 3 against --it'd be prejudicial.If you feel strongly against °this,let me know.But I don't think that's unethical.I 6 think that each of you have employed people from time to time. 'If you've got a group that's done a good job for you,we'd like °to hear about it.On the other hand,if you want to say °something bad about somebody,perhaps you don't want to mention °that;you just don't mention his.name..I'd prefer that this 0 doesn't turn into a --a bad-mouthing session.On the other "hand,if you have somebody who's really top-notch,I think it <would do the whole project some good to speak up. " MR.YARTER:This is Dick Yarter.Does anyone °know of any helicopter-transportable rigs in Alaska capable °of drilling to 1,500 feet?I know they're -the silence is m deafening.I know that such rigs are made.I've got -we °used one just one step larger than a helicopter-transportable °rig and drilled to 1,700 feet in Japan with fairly heavy drill:pipe.But I called the manufacturer --it's Midway 92 Manufacturing in Midland,Texas,and they didn't know of any 93 that were in Japan --or,I mean in Alaska, 04 MS.DeJONG:Something you should probably do, 95 Dick,is look into what other projects are going on out there this year.The Corps of Engineers is going to be doing some R &R COURT REPORTERSHSUSTREELSUEOFSoewgRAENUE 1007 ¥ano pene 1 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 24 25 -178- work,and I --I imagine they'll be investigating soils.I don't know if they're drilling and coring,and they're probably not going as deep as you want,but there's also construction projects that'll be going on out there.It's pushing it to think that they'd be using the same kind of rig,though.... MR.YARTER:Yes,it is. MS.DeJONG:.....but we ought to pursue every avenue. MR.YARTER:However,they might..... MR.HUTTRHR:(Indiscernible)are generally not the kind of machine we're looking for here.Generally we're looking for either a rotary rig with a standard capability of going to 2,000 feet --2,000 feet's a funny - -it"s a funny number.The rigs are built to go 1,000 feet and 1,5000 feet and 3,000.By the time you get to a 3,000 foot rig --correct me if I'm wrong,Dick --you start moving into a different range of machines.A 1,500 foot hole is not a deep hole,and can be undertaken by a relatively small truck-mountedrig.A 3,000 foot hole is a little bit more of a project.A diamond drill for mineral exploration can --and I've sat on --I've sat on 3,000 and 4,000 foot diamond drill holes.They take a long time,they can get themselves in trouble,and they can take --they can cost a lot of money because of the time they take.Nevertheless,they're very trans---they're very transportable.You can always fly a diamond drill in.That's R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1407 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -179- no problem at all.Do I hear any comments or experience in the use of diamond drills on deepish holes in Alaska?Any water problems?Would we have any trouble finding water and bringing to the drill site? MR.WESCOTT:It rains a lot up there. MR.HUTTRER:Well,I realize that.I'm anticipating that if we pick a site --what I could visualize would be simply damming up a creek or a little,small rivulet that's running fairly consistently --damming it up with a few shovelfuls of dirt,putting in some PVC pipe,and running it over to the drill site.if that's possible,and hoping it's a gravity flow,and storing it in 55 gallon barrels and using it on a --on a rig in that sort of a condition. Alternatively,you have to pipe a longer distance from a lake or a pond,if there are such things,or swamps,even. And then this may take a small pump that you sit on site. That's a pain in the neck,-'cause the guy's got to go over there to refuel it every so often,and it always gets plugged up with dirt,and the next thing you know,you've got to go fix it. These are just headaches.But there are other alternatives. You can even go to snow melt if you want to,and go find a place where it's running off snow melt.But that's getting pretty far out.Do any of those of you who have worked on -the hill have a feeling for how hard it's going to be to transport water to any given drill site? R&R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 180- MR.REEDER:Jerry,this is John.If --if one is really willing to put in all the utilities that would be needed to get the water to the site,I think you won't have any problem getting the water. MR.HUTTRER:You need the water. MR.REEDER:Yeah.I mean,I think you can get it.I don't think that's going to be a big problem.One thing,it seems to me like from the point of view of drilling, if you're going to do temperature gradient holes within the Makushin region,then unless it's at --you know --certain selected sites,like the Driftwood airfield,or something like that,you're almost going to have to be limited to a helicopter supported operation.That's just my general impression,unless you're going to go in and build roads. MR.HUTTRER:What is the condition of the road from Driftwood Bay up? MR.REEDER:It's --it's --you can get across it in three-wheelers and motorbikes,but it does have some wash-out's.Basically,it consists of --of a lot of breccia(ph)course material.It's fairly loose,and so there's a lot of erosion. MR.HUTTRER:Could you walk a Nodwell up it? MR.REEDER:Yeah,I think you could.There's a few sharp turns in it,and this type thing.But you could get it up to the top,probably,from Driftwood.You could also R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 oe -181- - pretty much cover the region where Gene Wescott and Don Turner did their helium mercury surveys.But beyond that,canyons are. going to stop you.You're going to have to fill in or actually start constructing a road and filling in canyons to get any further. MR.HUTTRER:Is there a Cat or a blade available in Unalaska --in Dutch Harbor,Unalaska? MR.JONES:Yes. MR.BUTTRER:What --can you tell me a little bit about what kind of equipment is available there? MR.JONES:Well,to address your first question, there's a D-7 and a D-6 that's there now.There's also talk that they're going to be bringing in some larger equipment in the very near future.There's also several cranes,upwards to about 70 ton,with 130 foot sticks on 'em.Dump trucks,heavy equipment such as loaders - front-end loaders,like the 988 Cat --that type of equipment is on board in Dutch Harbor. MR.HUTTRER:How would we get it over to someplace like Driftwood Bay?I'm staying away from Makushin Valley on purpose right now in my thinking because of the fish problem.So,for the moment I'm just addressing Driftwood Bay as a possible base type area,which may or may not be pertinent. But from what I understand,there's a fair surf at Driftwood -- two to three foot surf,and the beach has got pretty good sized cobbles.Would this preclude getting any kind of a R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 10t S09 W.3ROD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 .-182- barge or landing craft anywhere near enough to get a Cat off- loaded? MR.JONES:I'm Marvin Jones.I can't really answer your question without going back over,because that - beachline does change drastically from time to time.I would think with support of a few people in the community they could clear an area for landing craft that'll take any of the equipment that I mentioned. MR.HUTTRER:Do you have any idea how the road was built in the first place? MR.JONES:By the military. MR.HUTTRER:Did they fly in their machinery with a Herc.,or how did they first get it in there to get the airplanes..... MR.JONES:They brought 'em all up by barge. That was back in the late '30's and early '40's.Everything was barged into Unalaska and Dutch Harbor,or brought up on large ships. MR.MARKLE:This is Don.(Inaudible,away from mike)built that road? MR.JONES:Well,the Army was all over the area.In fact,at one time there was a beach road all the way around from Captains Bay around to Makushin.But it's deteriorated over the last forty years,and there's no reason to maintain it. R &R COURT REPORTERS 810N STREET,SUITE 101 SO@ W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 183- MR.REEDER:This is John.If I understand correctly,I think the road that goes from Driftwood up towards Sugarloaf and then back down the Makushin Valley --I think that was built fairly recently after the Driftwood airfild was built,and so forth.And I suspect that what they probably did was land a barge or something at Driftwood to get equipment off to build the airfield.Also --now,this is what I've heard from local people --is that originally the military wanted to have a permanent docking facility at Driftwood,and apparently they had an incredible amount of problems,and that is one of the reasons why they went in and built an airfield,is because of landing problems.And I have heard that,for example, because of the surf that goes in at Driftwood,to get a barge in safely,just land it up against a beach,there's only two or three times a year when you can actually do that.And -- that's what I've heard.And after being there on a very calm day,I believe it. MR.HUTTRER:What sort of surf are we talking about? MR.REEDER:It's pretty large.Maybe I'll get Mark Larsen to give some comments on that. MR.LARSEN:Well,it's coming off the Bering Sea,and there are some pretty rough waters there.Even ona good day,you have the surf..... | MR.HUTTRER:You have an alternative area R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-6343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 184= where you could land with a little bit more safety or more assurance? MR.MARKLE:(Inaudible) MR.HUTTRER:Pardon? MR.MARKLE:You'd probably have to use the airstrip.The beaches are really steep,and even when you can land in there you're not coming out across a flat beach, you're coming up on one that's real steep with big cobbles. MR.HUTTRER:.What condition is the --the airstrip at Driftwood looks like it was fairly usable.You couldn't really tell whether it could be cleaned up a little. MR.REEDER:It's --this is John again. It's --the airstrip is very soft.It's loose material,just like what the roads..are made out of.One of the problems with the airstrip is there is a small creek that runs right along it, so the airstrip itself is pretty well saturated.And Airpac (ph) which is a local flying outfit out of Unalaska,has had reservations about even landing a Goose there at times,because it gets so soft.So,if you had a lot of traffic going in and out,you might have problems. MR.HUTTRER:So that means you've got to come in with helicopters,most likely,to even land..... MR.REEDER:Initially. MR.HOYTRER:.....equipment to fix up the field. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3ROD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 a as *-Re et ce wg em me ee ee cg ee ce te re ge 24 25 185- MR.REEDER:Possibly,or you might even -you might attempt one or two landings on the airfield,but you're going to have to get equipment in to do more work with the airstrip.I have some --Jerry,I have some photographs of that area.I don't know if you'd want to look at 'em now or later,or what. MR.HUTTRER:Perhaps later,I think.... MR.REEDER:Yeah. MR.HUTTRER:oee.-at this time.How about parachutes,folks?Well,we knew it'd be an interesting challenge,but this is just --it's going to take some discussion,and we'll have to see.How about LST's or LVT's? Are there any old Navy craft available there,left over? Anything that still operates? MR.JONES:This is Marv Jones.Yes,there's about three left on the island that's workable,and they're using presently.I can't identify the owners right now,because like so many other things,they change from day to day. MR.HUTTRER:Well,that's encouraging. MR.TURNER:How much are they?Are they LCN's or LCI's? MR.JONES:There's one LCN that I'm aware of. I'm not totally familiar with the other two.I know just recently we had a D-7 over at Akutan,and came and picked it up at the airport.And there was no problem. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 wipe ee cee -we _wy re agg oe ae ere MR.HUTTRER:What does that draw?Can it come right into a beach if it has to,or..... MR.JONES:Yeah,they brought it right up to the beach.It backed ---took the Cat right off the beach onto the landing craft without any additional support. MR.HUTTRER:Is there any way to get from Makushin Valley over to Driftwood,around the shore?Is there --is that terribly rough terrain?Can you --can you get up the valley --up Makushin Valley without contaminating the fishing streams? MR.REEDER:This is John again.The road going up Makushin Valley is washed out quite a bit. MR.HUTTRER:Could it be fixed? MR.REEDER:Yes,it could,but it would require building across the river in several points,and whether that'll have an environmental impact or not,I don't know.The --one of the problems of getting equipment up Makushin Valley is the hatchback,which is going up the volcanic pile near Sugarloaf. And that thing has some really sharp turns on it.But.like,for example,.a bulidozer,and so forth,you could probably get such equipment up there.As far as following the coast,forget it.That's pretty bad. MR.HUTTRER:What..about Glacier Valley?Is that too steep? MR.REEDER:For getting what?For getting R &R COURT REPORTERS 810N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 ott ge ne gegenee gete gggage ge a ge ge Or eg ae roe cernswee BK. -187- equipment in? MR.HUTTRER:Getting up towards Sugarloaf, getting up to the top with a rig.There's a village there; obviously,you've got to be able to land. MR.REEDER:Yeah,probably.the landing there -- or landing equipment there would be fairly easy compared to Driftwood,just because you are in Makushin Bay.Basically, in --in Makushin Valley,which goes into Broad Bay,you do have a lot of swamps and alluvial deposits....In.the Glacial Valley it's a lot more alluvial deposits.It's more of a braided stream type thing.You could probably walk heavy equipment right up --right up it.But..... MR.HUTTRER:How fiar? MR.REEDER:.....you're only going to be able to get up to the lower elevations,probably around 1,000 feet. MR.HUTTRER:There's no way to get out of Glacier Valley,up over the hill? MR.REEDER:It's pretty --pretty tough. MR.HUTTRER:Just can't get up the last walls? MR.MOTYKA:You can get all the way up to -- you know where these last --last of these hot springs occur up Glacier Valley.But like you said before,why do you want to go up there when your people are....... MR,HUTTRER:Right now I'm just..... MR.MOTYKA:.....usually generally on the other R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 10t SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W,3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 ian ls i A Se Se ee a nn fe A ae ia ee we feeeeeeeeeeee a ee er.ee:Se - 1838- side? MR.HUTTRER:-e.e.-talking about access. MR.ISSELHARDT:Well,we may want to get over this way to drill one of the gradient holes in here someplace. MR.HUTTRER:Well,it sounds to me like we're augering in here on the drilling rig is going to have to be determined on the basis of what we can move it with.And it's beginningito sound to me like you've got to at least have one good sized helicopter available to move in --a D-6 or 7.You say you've got a 7 and what else? MR.JONES:There's a6 anda 7. MR.HUTTRER:Well,a 6 would probably do it.A 7 is a lot more Cat. MR.ISSELHARDT:If you have one good day,and you can land at Driftwood Bay and get the Cat in and fix the runway up,then you'd be in good shape. MR..HUTTRER:Let's go back to discussing drills.We'll have to --we've kicked around transportation in and out,but I'm not getting too much information on drills. Where did you --what was the kind of --what kind of drill did you use at Summer Bay,and what was its maximum depth capacity? Was it just a soil rig? MR.REEDER:Yeah. MR.HUTTRER:It was a small soil rig and..... MR.MARKLE:It was just a --they were using it R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE tOt SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 +277-0373 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -189- for pilings.--this is Don Markle.--for the bridge.It probably had about --had about 500 - I don't think it had gone very deep,do you,John?I never saw the rig actually,except -- except in photographs. MR.REEDER:Yeah,this is John.I can't remember what type a rig it was.We could find out.But it was:acrotary..... MR.MARKLE:Dames &Moore did it.They can give you the answers on it.It certainly isn't what you're looking for for the other site. MR.REEDER:Whatever you do,don't do what they did.Do a better job. MR.TURNER:This is Turner.I guess we probably recognize,we don't have very much local drilling experience in the room,most certainly not those of us here from the University,and most other folks as well.There are a lot of people in tewn,of course,that you can talk to.And some of our University people at the Geophysical Institute in the permafrost group know quite a bit about drilling.You might contact Tom Osterkamp(ph)there on that subject. MR.HUTTRER:Where would Tom Osterkamp be located? MR.TURNER:He's at the Geophysical Institute in Fairbanks.They've done a lot of subsea(ph)permafrost work, and various drilling projects. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 toeee nce oteypemene re a nee eeeaceee en re cee ee a ee ee vo eee eee gee ey ee ee eee ye a . -190- MR.HUTTRER:We plan on contacting most of the local drillers and assessing --we have already started,and really before we even submitted the proposal we sort of cased the joint and talked to at least a half a dozen drillers.I think Corky called quite a few on the phone.And we know that the right kind of equipment does live in Anchorage.Whether it can be broken down and transportable,that's the big rub. MS.DeJONG:(Inaudible,away from mike) MR.HUTTRER:Ah,we need some of that. MS.DeJONG:(Inaudible)good news.I talked to ane of the other project.managers who's been involved in Susitna,and they had.rigs that drilled to around 600 feet in hard rock with helicopter mob.(ph),and they think they're from in-State.And that sounds good in terms of the same rig might to go 1,500 as well.I'm trying to track it down.We can talk to the guy later.But that's somewhat encouraging. MR.HUTTRER:We flew up last night with a drilling --a man whose brother --two brothers are in the drilling business.And one was the Penn Jersey Drilling Company,and the other was Western Drilling Associates,I believe.And this man said that his brothers had equipment suitable,but it wasn't dismantleable (sic).'”You couldn:t change its configuration and transport it on a helicopter.We've heard that Drilling Services --is that the name of it..... MR.ISSELHARDT:Western Production Services -- R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 ws "eee ewe ow +8 Eeeoe wee wee ee pe re a ee ae gp gg egg oe ee oes oO eee _-191- Production Services,Inc.? MR.HUTTRER:Perhaps Production Services,Inc. was supposedto have a Nodwell mounted to bailing 1,500.At any rate,as you say,Don,perhaps we don't have in the room the expertise in drilling that we need to tap.But if any of you over the next several weeks run into anybody that's in the drilling business that could be of information,if you'd have him contact Patti or John,or myself,or Paul Neff,or Steve Grabacki of Dames &Moore --any of us --we appreciate any leads that you run into,because we'll be doing the same,and Dick'll probably be busy almost all this week to locate suitable people.Now,of course,this problem becomes three times as bad when we try going for the deep wells.But we knew this when we took the contract,or when we entered a bid.And we're just now getting down to the nitty-gritty,to grappling with the details of accomplishing the project.Now when you're talking about a deep --a 4,000 to 6,000 foot well,it's a big piece of equipment,and we will have to locate an oil well type rig,probably,that can be dismantled.And there are such things;there are heli-rigs. MR.TURNER:Parker Drilling has one up here now, MR.RUTTRER:Right.And we estimated 500 loads with a helicopter to get it in place.--500 loads. MR..ISSELHARDT:You can build an airstrip up Driftwood Bay,and fly it in there with a Herc.or R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE tOt S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 eee mee meme ta one ap oe"ge-a*canee .7 ea ee ee ee.ee 24 -192- something and --you know..... MR.HUTTRER:It's possible.By the time you Herc.it in there you're in a lot better shape. MR.ISSELHARDT:......then a Nodwell or something up a road --you can fix the road up a little bit. MR.(HUTTRER:Anyway,we'll give this further thought.Obviously we're not getting too very much further here with the group. MR.MARKLE:Let me give you just a little bit more.This is Don Markle.There is a new rig that's just -- just came into town in the last couple months over at MW Drilling,that's a portable,oil field type.I think it has a maximum depth of about 4,500 feet.But it's considerably less on the logistics,getting it in.They gave me a little briefing on it.I can't remember what it is.But we're going in concert with you kind of on this Pilgrim drilling project, and on this front end work-it may be some rigs that are being considered to be brought up on that project that would drill to about 2,00 feet. MR.HUTTRER:Even though those --those will be shallow holes..... MR.MARKLE:Yeah. MR.HUTTRER:cee eee those first ones? MR.MARKLE:That's what I'm saying.Your......4 MR,HUTTRER:we talked to..... R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-6343 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -193- MR.MARKLE:.....your first go-around.I haven't looked at my proposals that came in on --on..... MR.HUTTRER:No,we've been in contact with M &W(sic)to find out exactly what was available. MR.MARKLE:That was Wayne Westburg? MR.HUTTRER:Yeah. MR.REEDER:Yeah,the new rig that he has -- this is John Reeder --that has pretty deep capabilities, doesn't it? MR.MARKLE:Yeah. MR.REEDER:That's a pretty big rig. MR.MARKLE:Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:20 footer(ph). MR.REEDER:Are you sure it can be broken down,OL.... MR.MARKLE:I don't know,but it was --as opposed to a regular oil field rig,it was --it was that step down from that,which may be a step up for us.-=-you know -- this type of project out here.Also,there's a lot of Nodwells around that will get to 1,000 feet. MR.HUTTRER:Let me ask this about Nodwells. My experience using them is limited.I understand from this man that was on the airplane with us last night that a Nodwell comes in three different sizes,at least,and that the larger Nodwells are capable of moving heavy equipment through some R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 101 S309 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 7194- pretty ratty terrain,fairly wet,fairly sloppy,and uneven terrain.Are there any of you who have used Nodwells with -- that have any experience? MR.MARKEL:I've used Nodwells,but it's always been on frozen ground. MR.HUTTRER:No,that's too easy. MR.MARKLE:I've never --I've never seen one. We 'brought one in for Pilgrim Springs,and when we were going in we were going in in October,and we were breaking through with our drill rig as we went ahead. | MR,.HUTTRER:Right. MR.MARKLE:That was on open tundra. MR.HUTTRER:Well,evidently they're supposed to be able to negotiate tundra fairly well,and muskeg with the big rigs. MR.MARKLE:Yeah,the only serious problem we had,we got in one gully and then we couldn't get back out for awhile. MR.REEDER:Jerry,again,it's going to be gullies and these type of things.It..... MR.MARKLE:Yeah,you're going to need a Cat.... MR.REEDER:,....doesn't matter what kind of Nodwell you have,it's just not going to get over that kind of stuff.There are areas you can probably get around quite R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 an ee tecect eete eeee ee a ttre re te ee es . 7195 a bit,like in the immediate Makushin Valley,in the immediate Glacier Valley,and up in the Sugarloaf region.You could probably get a rig around on the terrain.But that's,I think,about it.From there on you're going to have to have road construction or put it in with a helicopter. MR."HUTTRER:I'm leaning heavily towards helicopters and diamond drills.I still am.I know that there are lots of negatives to it,but I see few alternatives. MR.MARKLE:A little more information that may be of use,when you go back to California you should get ahold of California Energy Corporation on their work at Adak.We got a letter from Senator Stevens,indicating that there may be some action aut there.If in fact there is some action out at Adak,the possibility of shared mobilization and -that sort of -thing may be real. MR.HUTTRER:They put in 2,000 foot holes at Adak?- MR.MARKLE:Right. MR.HUTTRER:Right,two of 'em,I think. MR..MARKLE:Right.Hamilton Drilling did that,which is no longer in existence,and I don't know if there's a correlation. MR.HUTTRER:.Now,we've got several other friends that did some of the geophysical work at Adak,and they..... R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 $09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 ..w -196- MR.ANSARI:They're no:longer existing? MR.HUTTRER:.....pardon? MR.ANSARI:They're no-longer existing? MR..HUTTRER:.No,they're still there.Larry Brown and Microgeophysics(ph).They had a contract --they spent three summers out there,and they're still trying to dry out.Let's move along to some other things that are a little less related.I'm sorry..... MR.ROBISON:Robinson..... MR.HUTTRER:o.ee.GO ahead,Paul. MR.ROBISON:.....I think one of the crucial decisions you're going to have to make will be whether you can go with a coring rig,or whether you're going to have to go with a --or can go with a rotary rig.And if you --if a coring rig isn't going to do it,it won't matter whether you can mobilize it or not.And.... - MR.HUTTRER:Well,we believe that you can probably --first of all,if we'd like to make some speed,you can go with a diamond drill.A good-sized diamond drill can go in,and you can hook up a rotary tricone on it and drill rotary,youucan go in with a diamond flood bit and drill it that way,or you can go in and core.So,you've got the versatility.It's just that a diamond drilling bit is not really designed for heavyduty drilling at great depths, although we're talking about 1,500 to 2,000 foot holes in the R &R COURT REPORTERS 81ON STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE °1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -=+ w Sewmwewevwatis .- awe ='7s =-rewe|<}: -197- thermal gradient holes.I think --I just hope we can find a diamond drill that can handle that kind of depth here.I've used in for many,many years in mining camps,and I have no problems with 'em.The rest of our crew is more oriented to more conventional geothermal techniques.And I think those conventional techniques normally have advantages over the diamond drill for doing what we want to.But-I've seen jobs where you've got to do it;I don't care how you get it done, so if there's no other choice,you go to a diamond drill. MR.ROBISON:But when you're working loose.... MR.HUTTRER:But'I know what you're saying. MR.ROBISON:.....young volcanics,that's where you're going to be doing the drilling,I have personal experience with young volcanic,loose rocks,and where diamond coring just wouldn't --wouldn't have done it;(Indiscernible) was the only way. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:A lot of torking(ph).... MR.HUTTRER:.Well,you end up cementing and cementing,and cementing.And..... MR.ROBISON:Even with the mud you --or foam, you end up doing lots of cementing. MR.HUTTRER:Either that,or it's percussion air.You can go to an air track,and you've got to beat'your way down through it with a down hole hammer. MR.ISSELHARDT:Well,this is Isselhardt again. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 509 W.3RD AVENVE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 PROPERTY &:" Alaska Power |.-rty . 334 W.52)ve. ™'Anchorage,Alaska 99501 aia._*.fy aaa _.. ,f nag ! »>EINA.LE 4 et i F; 24 25 -198- I've done it both ways,and I've --there's some places where you have to use a core rig;it's just the only way you're going to get through,especially in severe loss circulation,because you can --you can drill ahead while you're just drilling for water and lose circulation and not worry about it.But when we bid on this thing,and when I talked to the drilling department --what we'd like to do is get some rig that's capable of doing both rotary with air or foam and coring. Sometimes you can find a unit that'll do that,but they're not easy to find.But I think one thing is we're not --we will attempt,at least,not to spud in the under volcanics,because from what I've seen to date,it appears that many of the fumarole fields are located just off of the young volcanics,and hopefully we could spud at least a couple of the holes in the Older Unalaska formation,give us a big advantage,and probably save us a lot of --a lot of trouble.But that may not be possible._ MR.ROBISON:I would tend to agree,if you could stay away from the younger volcanics,you'd be a lot better off. MR.HUTTRER+;Well,I was encouraged by seeing some of John's slides,in which I only saw what I estimated was a couple hundred feet of younger volcanics in some of the areas. And that's a lot better than 2,000 feet of that stuff.I mean, you can fight your way down through it,but I certainly would R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -199- agree with what Corky said.If at all possible,don't fight it,just try to spud off it.There's nothing to be gained by drilling through 'em. MR.REEDER:This is John Reeder.Also,I really think you want to try to locate your holes --your temperature gradient holes in the older formations,anyway. MR.HUTTRER:Well,if we're drilling in the plutonic rocks,the chances are that we'll have some fairly decent drilling.We may have some fractures and so forth,but I don't think we'll anticipate finding the same loss circulation zones,rubble zones,and garbage that you'll have in the loose volcanics.I see differences..... MR.REEDER:I don't know what you're going to find.I hope you're right. | MR.HUTTRER:Well,I (Indiscernible,simul-. taneous speech)unless we drill through them,and we go -- these are either dykes,lopoliths,or apophyses (ph)of a major -+ major feature,I would hope that if we spud in it,we'll stay in it for a ways.If there are no more..... MR.ANSARI:I have a question.This is Jamal Ansari.What are you going to do about the T(ph)zone?Are you going to cement them or case them through? MR.HUTTRER:About what? MR.ANSARI:About the T(ph)zone that you're going to encounter,the fractures. R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.SRD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 3 ome en ee ww &-_wee eoce et gw ge -200- 1 MR.ISSELHARDT:(Inaudible,away from mike) 2 loss circulation zone. 3 ,MR..HUTTRER:Well,I imagine they'll be 4 handled in the standard procedure,where you'll cement them off. 5 You'll try to get through them with loss circulation material. 6 If it can't be achieved,you've got to cement them off. 7 MR.ANSARI:You can case them,too. 8 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:(Inaudible) 9 MR.CAREY:What are you concerned about? 10 MR.ANSARI:I-.was just asking the question 11}what is (Indiscernible).'* 12 MR.HUTTRER:Dick,why don't you explain how 13]you eventually complete the hole for.a temperature gradient 14)hole? 15 MR.YARTER:You would run --you set a string 16 of surface pipe --oh,excuse me --we'd set a string of 17)surface pipe probably 100 feet,depending on the size of the -- 18 of the rig we have.If it were a conventional rig,we'd drill, I would imagine,six and a quarter hole to 1,500 feet,or 20 2,000,or whatever depth they wanted to go,and probably just 21 load the hole with heavy mud and some --mix some cement in 22 with it,and run a string of probably inch and a half or two 23 inch tubing,and fill that with water.And that would be -- 24 and just cap it,and that would be it.There'd be a plug at 25 the surface. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,4LASKA 99501 -201- MR.HUTTRER:At this point we don't plan on logging the hole if they're just volcanics or just plutonic rocks.Logging doesn't make a whole lot of sense in that kind of terrain;nobody yet knows how to interpret the logs. MS.DeJONG:Is it the shallow hole or the..... -MR.HUTTRER:These are the shallow ones,right. But these will be just observation holes.Of course,we'll pay a lot of attention to the cuttings,and we'll try to get as much geologic information out of the whole thing as:we can. However,we are trying to minimize the academic studies --I mean,to log the hole --we give some consideration to logging, but frankly,it's academic,and you're sure not going to fly Schlumberger..in.here to vlog.a'hole.:The only other alternative is a little,hand-held logger,which won't even go 2,000 feet. MR.ISSELHARDT:This is Isselhardt again. We're looking into logging holes in --with Schlumberger in Japan,and we're talking about at least $50,000.00 a month just to rent the equipment.You don't just get it to fly in for one job;you have to rent it by the month with all the tools and everything else.So,it's just not --just not feasible to log the slim holes.But when we do the --the deep well,we -- we'll try to time it so that we only have to rent it for maybe --perhaps a month or two at the most,and bring the equipment out and log the deeper part of the hole with sonic R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-6543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 -202- logs,and a density log,and a gamma ray neutron type of thing. The SP and the resistivity logs just are essentially useless with those kinds of materials. MR.NICHOLS:Jerry? MR.HUTTRER:Any questions on drilling? MR.NICHOLS:Clay Nichols,one more question. Was the 1,500 to 2,000 foot depth decided after you looked at the hydrogeology,or the volcanic statigraphy or anything to think that that was going to be adequate for getting what you want? MR.HUTTRER:That depth is a combination of considerations - -of monetary considerations,time considerations and our experience in Japan.Our Japanese experience has shown that you've got to have holes in volcanics like this --a minimum of 1,500 feet deep before you get meaningful data.Very often until you get down there you've got isothermal holes, and you've got convection running up and down through those porous volcanics.So,until you get down below that,for some reason,it seems to be a number - approximate --approximating the zone at which you'll start to get conductive heat transfer. MR.NICHOLS:Yeah,I knew that it'd be at least 1,500 feet.I was wondering in Jim's experience if he thought that was deep enough.Of course,it'd make a difference if you were in one of those old plutons. MR.ROBISON:Robison here.I think that R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 --gww:i.a.2 co a ed -weeew >”-a ew owe ee wwe we -203- 1,500 to 2,000 feet would get to the answers you'd need to know in this type of environment,based on my own experience in the Oregon Cascades. MR,HUTTRER:We certainly discarded the idea of 400 foot holes,or --you know --100 meter holes as being absolutely useless,a waste of money.Much easier to do, though,but no objective,no point to it. MR.REEDER:This is John Reeder.I hate to show my ignorance,but if on these small holes --let's say they're diamond drilled --if by chance you did hit something, are they still going to be big enough to the appropriate test? MR,HUTTRER:Not really.You could do a pump test --a pump-in test,probably,but.... MR.ISSELHARDT:We get --we get fluid samples and --you could get a sample of the fluid,and you can do some geochemistry,and you might even be able --if we had two and three-eights tubing you might slot it and get some reservoir pressures by dropping a Kooster(ph)tool down or something.There's a lot of things you can do,but in terms of a float test that's really meaningful,it would be --you could get some information,but it's not as --it's not as good as -- but it would certainly give you an idea of where you want to go with the big hole --how deep,and so on. MR.HUTTRER:And it'll give you a good observation hole if you actually go to the same reservoir. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -204- MR.ISSELHARDT:You can.monitor pressure. MR.HUTTRER:But I assume if we're going to -- if the mother lode is down at 4,000 to 6,000 feet,the chances are marginal that you're going to have vertical permeability and vertical communication with the reservoir that you tap at 2,000 feet.It's possible,but you may have pressure transients that you'll be able to pick up by use of transducers.But I think that there won't be that much communication between the shallow reservoir and the deep one. If we're lucky --gee,I mean if you hit the thing at 3,000 -- 2,000 feet,that'd be frightening.Nice,but scary. MR.ISSELHARDT:Possible. MR.HUTTRER:No,it's not impossible,at all. MR.ISSELHARDT:I said it's possible. MR.HUTTRER:Oh,yeah,if you're having..... MR.ISSELHARDT:(Indiscernible)geysers wells (Indiscernible).....° MR.HUTTRER:If you've got boiling temperatures at 25 centimeters,we haven't got far to go. Matter of fact,a long-handled shovel would probably he a better tool than a drill. MR.TURNER:That brings up the question of blow-out prevention on these shallow holes.What are you going to do? MR.HUTTRER:standard control.Probably go R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 SOP Ww.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 wow eg oe gy:--ee oe we ge genrege ow -- wee ae eee ee eee ee!CO... -205- with a bag just for the rotating head --bag for the thermal gradient drills --thermal gradient holes.It's possible the State may require us to go to rams or to --you know --pipe rams or blind rams.We don't know because they don't have the regulations designed yet. MR.ISSELHARDT:We're going to help them write it,Jerry. MR.HUTTRER:Exactly.We favor just going with your first --your first line of defense,which is a rotating head in the bag.But yes,there will be blow-out prevented.No question that we'll have it on there. MR.ANSARI:I've got:a question.What is the economics of developing these --all that you're drilling initially is shallow wells --to develop to a full,deep well? Can you rework them? MR.HUTTRER:You mean to change them into a deep well?ae MR.ANSARI:Right. MR.HUTTRER:You can't -=-can't be done, because the casing program won't work.The casing will be too small. MR.ISSELHARDT:You can jerk the casing off, but you're essentially..... MR.NICHOLS:Well,then you're starting all over again. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -206- MR.ISSELHARDT:.....you're starting all over again. MS.DeJONG:(Inaudible,away from mike)the same pad? MR,HUTTRER:oh,yes,certainly.Oh,sure. But the pad for a small well --we don't anticipate making a pad.You're talking about --if it's a diamond drill,it's about the size of this table.And that's about it,really.We don't disturb the environment at all with a diamond drill, except perhaps lower one leg and raise the other.So,it doesn't compare with the kind of location you'd have to put in for a deep well.That takes as much as..... MR.ISSELHARDT:200 by 300,or something.... MR.HUTTRER:.,,..an acre,if you can find an acre.Couple of acres are ideal,but we may not have that much. in one spot.If it's all right,let's move on to the next topic,which was weather...We've already covered it --I don't know what we can do about.In a sense,all I --I have some records that were sent to me,and I have subscribed to the weather service out of North Carolina so that we --we do keep track of the weather records,for what purpose,I don't know, because all it can tell me is perhaps the chances that we'll have to do certain things certain parts of the year. COURT REPORTER:Excuse me,Mr.Hettrer,could you just attach that?I'm getting...... R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 weeceee ow -ae wr mew l=--7 eu +aea -207- MR.WUTTRER:I'm sorry. COURT REPORTER:....-high and low volumes from..... MR,HUTTRER:rm sorry.Okay.I think our concern is,first,when we can get in,and that's been answered.Essentally,the month of May is when we'll go to work in the field,there abouts.This is what we planned, anyway.on the schedule that was shown to you earlier.As far as whether --I would like to ask a question of Roman and John,especially,and anybody else that's worked on the hill there.What are the average lengths of time for whicha crew working above Sugarloaf could not be picked up by a helicopter if you've got a medical emergency?How long can you be socked in :there? MR.MOTYKA:One good thing about working at Sugarloaf isoyou've got that road:you can always come down on. It's not a difficult placeto come down below the fog.But that's what you're essentially asking,is how often..... MR,HUTTRER:yeah, MR.MOTYKA:.....you can get socked in. MR.HUTTRER:90%of the time? MR.MOTYKA:You probably have a better feel than I do.I'd say not more --certainly not more than 50%of the time,but.... MR,HUTTRER:well,that's not bad. R &R COURT REPORTERS N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE°37-0572 +277-0573 277-8943 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 ee ame we ee _-<a eo en ey es -=- .gEee -208- MR.MOTYKA:...%...you're right --you're right at the elevation where you really start getting the cloud problems. MR.HUTTRER:How much higher are the fumaroles, John,that --numbers two,three,four..... MR.MOTYKA:It'd be four and five. MR.HUTTRER:.....five,too?I'm not sure. How much higher above Sugarloaf are those in elevation? MR.REEDER:Okay,fumarole field fone is below Sugarloaf,elevation wise."I think it's about 1,200.or 1,300 feet.And Sugarloaf itself is around 1,900 feet,and the main mass there is probably around 1,700,1,600 feet.So, that's the one fumarole field that's below that elevation, which means you could fly to it before you could on the top. Now,for example,last summer I had a base camp situated near Sugarloaf.That base camp was there for a little under --it was under two weeks.And it was in the fog about --I would say about 65%of the time. MR.HUTTRER:That's not too bad. MR.REEDER:It was --but under winds and other.... MR.HUTTRER:How windy are we talking about? What's your average wind.... MR.REEDER:It didn't blow down any of the tents. R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7313 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 we <a ee ow ee ee weeee ce nme Oe ea eegene eee mee o«me ge ge we ee gee 209- MR.HUTTRER::Well,that doesn't say much.But I'm talking about limitations on helicopter operations.How windy would you estimate it was?When you say it's windy are you talking about 10 knots,or are you talking about 30 knots? MR.REEDER:Well,I think there was a couple of times when it was getting high enough that you'd have trouble landing,even if it was good visibility.But that's about it. Usually it was just a breeze right along the --yeah. MR.HUTTRER:Is there a particular elevation where the fog appears to hang? MR.MOTYKA:Right about --that's what I was saying..... MR.-HUTTRER:Right at Sugarloaf? MR.MOTYKA:.....that's right at that elevation, MR.HUTTRER:It just settles in about there? MR.REEDER:In fact,I would say it might even be a little lower.It appears to be the actual cloud level most of the time. 4 MR.'HUTTRER:Is there a time of day that is particularly foggy,or does it just come in --come and go all day,or does it just stay in there? MR.MOTYKA:Totally random as far as I could... MR.REEDER:You're going to find out. MR.'tHUTTRER:Well,we're going to find out, but what I want to do is to do some --be able to have some R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.4LASKA 99501 -210- kind of planning or some kind of ideas at first.You work with what you have. MR.LARSEN:Generally speaking,early morning is probably the best time,usually.If£it's going to get bad, it gets bad around (Inaudible,away from mike). MR.HUTTRER.What are your prevailing.... MR.MOTYKA:It's got a lot to do with the wind direction..... MR.HUTTRER:That's..... MR.MOTYKA:......to0o,whether it's coming off the Bering or the Pacific,depending on...... MR."HUTTRER:Does it prevail..... MR.MOTYKA:.....(Indiscernible,simultaneous speech). MR.HUTTRER:eoee.e Out Of the north,usually? MR.MOTYKA:Variable. MR.NEFF:Yes. MR.HUTTRER:The charts say it does.The charts say north,northwest most of the time. MR.MOTYKA:Yes,I think that's true,because on Akutan usually the northwest side of the volcano is socked in a much higher percentage of the time than anything else,and so you're probably in a shadow zone on the east side,northeast side,and your fog layers,fog (Inaudible,away from mike). But something special about Dutch Harbor,too,it seems to sit R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 we SO a ee en Ieott eats oe -211- like this little window in the fog.Everything can be socked in all around it,but Dutch Harbor and the airstrip --they probably stay open. MR.HUTTRER:But if you had to evacuate somebody,medical emergency type thing,assuming they're in a condition to ride down,could you take a three-wheeler down that road from Sugarloaf,or are you limited to trailbikes, Or on your back?Are you walking? MR.REEDER:Yeah,this is John.You could get a three-wheeler down there.I'm not sure about --you mean, like --are you referring to a trailer being attached to a three-wheeler?I'd say you could do that.You just get -- the operator would have to know what he's doing,but you can get it down. MR.HUTTRER:How wide is that road? MR.REEDER:Oh,I would say that it's not very wide.Originally when it was built,it was probably around 12 feet wide,10 feet wide,I think.But it has eroded,and there are some sharp turns in it.And unfortunately,where some of these sharp turns are is where you have a lot of gullying. And if you had like a big drilling rig truck going up there, you may actually have to take some of those turns out, reconstruct it.. MR.TURNER:Does it ford the river? MR.REEDER:There was a bridge there,and the R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99S01 we en ge een: -212- bridge has been washed out recently.Everyone fords --yeah, the river is fairly low;you can get across.Of course, there's an environmental problem doing that.But usually the water isn't high enough --you usually get just about anything across.I would say probably you can drive a vehicle across it if you're really careful,as long as the banks weren't too bad a shape. | MR.HUTTRER:Are we liable to get snow --snow at any 'time of year? MR,REEDER:If you're high enough,yeah. MR.HUTTRER:Well,yeah,I'm talking about at the fumarole fields,or thereabouts.The top of the fumarole fields are about 3,000 feet,right? MR.REEDER:Yeah,see,Mark and I --we were getting hail --were we ever getting snow when we were up there in August? MR.LARSEN:-(Inaudible)no.I don't think we got anything that --much accumulation to speak of,no. MR.MOTYKA:It's a pretty mild environment all throughout the Chain. MR.HUTTRER:What were you wearing for field clothes when you were..... MR.MOTYKA:Oly Jansen(ph). MR.-HUTTRER:Pardon? MR.MOTYKA:Oly Jansen rain gear.But John's R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0873 277-8843 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.4LASKA 99501 -213- had good success with Peter Storm.Rain gear --you've got to have rain gear. MR.HUTTRER:Yeah.But Peter Storm is fairly decent? MR.MOTYKA:I -=-it's lighter weight.I don't think it's as rugged as Oly Jansen,but..... MR.REEDER:I really like the light weight, Peter Storm. MR.HUTTRER:Can you get them locally,or do. you have to get 'em down below in Seattle? MR.MOTYKA:You can get 'tem locally. MR.HUTTRER:What are you wearing --what are you wearing under that?Are you wearing.... MR.MOTYKA:That's personal. MR.HUTTRER:...-.running suits?Well,I mean I've seen people that work in their underwear,or they're working....._ °MR,MOTYKA:Light --light wool. MR.HUTTRER;s .....in running suits,or.... MR.MOTYKA:If you're going to be in a wet, damp climate,often you're dealing with fog and low drizzle,and you're not going to wear your rain gear,so you wear a lot of wool;light wool pants,wool sweater,wool socks,wool hat. And you bring your Uniroyals,super extra toughs,two pairs. MR.HETTRER:And that's it.So you.... R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -214- MR.MOTYKA:And you dry one out while you're using the other one. MR.HUTTRER:Right.That's what I was wondering,because it's just as bad to get overheated when you're climbing,walking,as it is to be under --underdressed.So you favor just working in wet --in layers of wool..... MR.MOTYKA:If it's not raining particularly hard,yeah.I think most people out there prefer working that way.It doesn't seem --it never appeared to me to get really cold out there.Just Polarguard vests or just --that pile stuff works real good in wet climates. MR.HUTTRER:What would you estimate the temperature range was most of the time from May on? MR.MOTYKA:50 to 60 degrees.Maybe --maybe it dipped under 50,but that's.... MR.HUTTRER:Really? MR.MOTYKA:....the (Inaudible,away from mike) MR.MARKLE:You're pretty -- you're down latitude there quite a bit.You have the Pacific current there, Jerry. MR.THUTTRER:Really?That's good.Insect problems? MR.MOTYKA:No,no bears,no insects.Lots of wind,lots of rain,though. MR.HUTTRER:That's fine.Let's see.Anything R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99801 RR wart aeea no a gee-ty 215- else on weather?Dick? MR.YARTER:I don't think so. MR.MOTYKA:Gene's found the fishing's excellent out there. MR.TURNER:I think the next step,as far as we're concerned,is to talk to these contractors.This Wayne Westburg --I was given his name from down --Westburg,I guess it is --from down below,pretty well regarded,and apparently he has some good equipment,so..... MR.REEDER:He's pretty well regarded up here, too. MS.DeJONG:Is this the guy (Inaudible,away from mike) MR.REEDER:Yeah,just had dinner at his house a couple days ago. MR.HUTTRER:Well --yes,Jim? MR.RIEHLE:At the risk of disrupting your schedule,I'd like to ask a question that goes back to geology and rebuilding the airstrip and reconstructing the road,and that is where are you going to get your fill? MR.MUTTRER:Well,depending..... MR.RIEHLE:There's no soil profile on the island;there's probably not much sand or gravel. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:(Inaudible) MR.RIEHLE:Well,I don't know.If you're R &R COURT REPORTERS 81ON STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENVE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 going to have to riprap that Unalaska formation,that might slow you down a bit. MR.REEDER:Jim --this is John.They got a lot of their material from - -it looked like sort of a cinder cone that's located right up here near Driftwood Bay.I think they carried a lot of that material for doing the finishing work on the road.This is one of the reasons why all the roads are made up of this loose clinkers and so forth. MR.HUTTRER:Cinders? MR.REEDER:Cinders,yeah.There's a lot of alluvial deposits,too,but whether you can get at those from the environmental point of view is probably questionable. MR.MOTYKA:Did you walk over that cinder dump there?I don't know --it'd take a little bit to get the..... MR.REEDER:Well,there are several of 'em. Which one? MR.MOTYKA:Okay,the one I went by was the one on the way up to the Air Force radar site there. MR.REEDER:Yeah. MR.MOTYKA:But that was the level part of the cone. MR.REEDER:That's one,and there's another one that looks like they're getting material - going up towards Sugarloaf.Probably have several more sites. MR.HOTTRER:Well,that's certainly a good R &R COURT REPORTERS GION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 te ee _:wr re ie ee ee ee we owen be 217- question,and I don't think we anticipate going into geotechnically sound airfields.You run a problem;one of the problems is if you build the airport up too well somebody's going to come in there and use it.as a private --somebody's going to look at it from the air,and come in and land on it. And if it isn't good,and they pile up their airplane,then they're going to be mad at you and blame somebody.On the other hand,if you don't fix it up well enough,you're going to mess up your own aircraft going in.So --we're having troubles in California right now where we have an --we have an airstrip on some property that we control,and people are landing on it. Well,we don't want the responsibility for what happens on that airstrip,and so we're having a heck of a time trying to close it.You've got to put bulldozer strips across it,and that doesn't do it,because then somebody will still land on it,and crash for sure.So,once you open up.an airfield,you really are - you're asking for.trouble.We have to pay a lot of attention to what we decide to do legally,and see what kind of ramifications it has on responsibility after we have opened an airfield. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:I.don't think there -are. going to be too many people landing at Driftwood Bay. ) MR.HUTTRER:Well,somebody in trouble might want to. MR.REEDER:Jerry,this is John again.We -- R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -218- I do have the original spec.'s that were used in constructing that airfield..... MR,HUTTRER:Great. MR.REEDER:.....if you want to look at those. MR,.HUTTRER:Sure,we'd be interested in seeing what they did. MR.REEDER:It at least tells how it should have been built,whether it was actually built that way. MR,HUTTRER:Right. MR.REEDER:Also,in any construction there at the landing strip you're:.goingto --there's going to have to be material moved from along the side of it just for drainage purposes.That's one of the real big problems.And you might be able to get materials. MR,HUTTRER:That's a field of expertise that Dames &Moore comes in so very handy on,because they know themselves --you know --they know how to design an engineer a lot of that.Steve? MR.GRABACKI:Jerry,this is Steve from Dames &Moore.So far we've found out that a Herc.needs about a 5,000 foot strip for a full load on a gravel strip,and that as we understand it,that Driftwood strip is about 3,500 feet, at its best. MS.DeJONG:Just for landing,or for taking off} MR.GRABACKI:Both.Yeah,to drop off a load R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO@ W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 vsmee cee ce ee eg ae ae age ee ee \esS&S 219- of,say a Cat or something like that,and then pick it --be assured of picking it up later needs about 5,000 feet of gravel. So,not only would it have to be repaired,but also lengthened by about 1,500 feet. MR.HUTTRER:Well,these are considerations we just have to evaluate. MR.MARKLE:Jerry,one last thing on that -- Don Markle.Patti is with a State agency,and there is a C133 that has about twice the carrying capacity as a Herc. Now,I don't even know what the spec.'s are on what that lands, but obviously,it's probably going to take a little longer strip.But that's available to State agencies. MS.DeJONG:Is it military --Elmendorf..... MR.MARKLE:Yeah,I've got the guy's name back at the office. MR.HUTTRER:That's a very interesting fact. MR.MARKLE:Yeah,80,000 pound capacity. MR.HUTTRER:Well..... MR.MARKLE:And 12 foot high..... MR.HUTTRER:.....S0 you could run a rig all the way in there,perhaps? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Sure could.That's even a truck mount. MR.HUTTRER:That might be very interesting. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:That's where your R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8843 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 we ne ny tee -220- parachute comes in. MR.HUTTRER:I was going to say,now if we can just land it at Sugarloaf. MR.MARKLE:I don't think there's a problem getting the rig in;it's getting it back out again --you can come in there with parachutes and drop it..... MR.HUTTRER:The First Memorial Drilling (Indiscernible)at the island. MR.CAREY:I still want to know,Dick,at.what altitude do you just drop the drill string and make 1,500 feet? 40,000 feet,45,000 --and let it go? MR.TURNER:It sinks(ph)in,but you'd probably make it about 20 foot post(ph). MR.HUTTRER:Let's go on to a discussion of housing.Yes,Carol? COURT REPORTER:Could we take about a five- minute break before we go on to the next one? MR.HUTTRER:You bet. MR.ISSELHARDT:Sure. MR.HUTTRER:Sure. (OFF THE RECORD) (ON THE RECORD) MR.HUTTRER:It's of interest to us,obviously, because we have several choices to make --I'm sorry,I didn't wear that thing again --we have housing of several types to R&R COURT REPORTERS S10N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8843 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,4LASKA 99501 wt ee emee ee enenece Er ee ee -e ..-tee "we ee 221- consider.First of all,the most obvious is when we're doing Stage --Stage III work --III,IV,and V work,we're going to have crews in the field.And there we're just really planning to have fairly crude living quarters.We're talking only about a week to ten days,two weeks.at a time.Excuse me,I've got a sneeze coming on here somewhere.We were kind of thinking in terms of a tent situation there,to camp out on the hill. I thought,John,one time I read something about you having the use of a building during your first season,was it --first drill season,as a temporary --I'm not sure where I got that idea.Is there an old building somewhere? MR.REEDER:Yeah,there are old military buildings in the region,and in 1980 we spent quite a bit of time out at White Bay,and basically what we did is we fixed up one of the buildings and --and stayed there for quite awhile. And that worked out pretty well,except the building did blow down one night,or one morning at 3:00.Basically what happened is that in the reconstruction of the building we --we made the building a little more rigid than it had been before,and the building did go down,and I almost lost all my field notes,and a few other minor details.But other than that,it worked quite fine.I think most of the buildings probably are in the hands of the Ounalashka Corporation.If'you.talked to 'em,they'd probably be familiar with the condition that they're in. MR.HUTTRER:Well,that's a fair distance away R &R COURT REPORTERS StON STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7318 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -222 from where we'd really want to be.... MR.REEDER:Right. MR.HUTTRER:.....anyway. MR.REEDER:Now,the - -this last summer we stayed out at Driftwood,and there are buildings rightat the airport there,which are in extremely good condition.And then there's also the site itself up the hill,but that's sort of dismal for staying at. MR.HUTTRER:Could you put tents in?How uncomfortable would you be living in tents for,say,three days at a time,and then coming back down to a base camp,say,at Driftwood?Is this feasible? MR.REEDER:Sure,yeah,One,... MR.HUTTRER:'What do you use for heat or for drying? MR.REEDER:Lot of times we'd just use fires, using wood that --driftwood from the beaches.Higher up all we'd have is our little stoves and lightweight camping gear. We never really helicoptered in big --you know --kerosene heaters,or this type of thing.Now,one thing is that when I was managing the --the camp on our cooperative thing between DGGS and --and the University of Alaska,what we did is we converted over one of the --sort of like bunkers out at Summer Bay,and stayed there for awhile,where everyone stayed in their own tents,but our main cooking area was one of those buidings. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-6343 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -223- And then when we moved over to Akutan,there --of course, there's no old military buildings.And what we used there as our main headquarter tent was a large Weatherport,which is -- you know --excellent structures. : MR.HUTTRER:What size was that,about? MR.REEDER:This was a 12 by 20 footer,and I would recommend going with a large ones..:By the time you put 'em up and get the gear in there,and so forth,you might as well have it as large as you can. MR.HUTTRER:Have these got floors? MR.REEDER:you can put floors on 'em or not. They're designed so that you could --you could build wood floors for 'em,and put 'em right on wood floors,or you can just put 'em right on the ground and put the floors down,but you have to anchor 'em down,because --I mean really anchor 'em down,because otherwise you --they could flip on you.That's one of the problems with-'em.Again,what we did there is everyone stayed in their own tents,but we had these --this main tent where people could go to.And that was pretty handy, because in case we did get really strong weather,small tents will go down no matter what,so it's good to have a permanent shelter.And of course,that's the time that a helicopter can't get in. ) MR.HUTTRER:Did they have flaps for heating vents,or for any kind of a stove through that Weatherport? R&R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-6543 272-7819 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -224- MR.REEDER:No,it's designed so that you could put heat into 'em.They usually have screened windows.You could have vents,you could do all kinds of things.We didn't do that,because we were just happy to get the Weatherport, period.There was..... MR.HUTTRER:What would you say was your main discomfort?Are you soaking wet all the time?Is that the thing you want to avoid?If you stay up there two weeks,you're going to be wet all the time.It takes the morale out of the operation and you really don't get a good job,sooner or later.And my experience working the Cascades has been we --I worked there two whole summers where.we.were wet from the minute you got out of the tent in the morning 'til the minute you got back,you were drenched.And all we did,we had kerosene stoves,and every --you'd just put up laundry lines,and every guy'd come in --we had three to a tent,and you just took your clothes off,hung 'em over the stove,and the next morning they were stiff as a board,but they were dry.And..... MR.REEDER:I would say..... MR.HUTTRER:....that's the way you live with "em. MR.REEDER:......I would say that if you have a warm,dry place that you can go to,and have a place where you can dry out clothes,that really helps. MR.'HUTTRER:Yeah. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 } we em ee wore eee rr owe aw "8 7 Gar -225- MR.REEDER:That was something which we really didn't have at our field operations.But when you go out, you're probably going to get what,no matter what happens.And I think it really helps someone --if you're out for about a week,it really helps to come out of the field for at a least a day,and run around Dutch Harbor. MR.HUTTRER:To the big city. MR.REEDER:Yeah,that helps psychologically. MR.HUTTRER:Did you --did you find that you used dictophones for taking notes,or did you just rely on write-in-the-rain notebooks?) MR.REEDER:I wrote everything down,yeah. MR.ISSELHARDT:We've already talked to the Weatherport people,and said that it looked pretty good.But they --they do have a --they do have flaps,and so on,for heaters.You can get different sized heaters,or whatever, and it's all --it's fairly easily portable with a chopper or something;you make one run in,and take a whole set-up,or a couple of 'em.You could put up a couple of smaller ones,or one big one,or if you only had two or three or four guys they could probably just all stay in the same one,or something. MR.REEDER:A Weatherport,properly put up, will probably just about withstand anything..... MR.ISSELHARDT:That's what they claim. MR.REEDER:o.e--Out there.And I sort of R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -226- believe it.It's --I mean,if they start going,it's going to be pretty bad.And it's possible;you could have problems with a Weatherport. MR,HUTTRER:The other subject I wanted to address was housing away from the field.Maybe I could get some idea of the availability of any kind of lodging on a temporary or renting basis in Dutch Harbor.Do you have any kind of a feel for that,Marv? MR.JONES:Yeah,Marv Jones.What is your basic crew going to consist of in numbers? MR.HUTTRER:I wouldn't think too many of 'em would be back there at a time.You might be talking about five,six people at some times and --for the big - for the major drilling project next year,that's a different story; that's a lot more people.But for this summer,I don't think you'll be talking about more than..... MR.ISSELHARDT:Ten,maximum. MR.HUTTRER: e...yeah.I can't even count them right now,but that's probably a good figure to use. MR.JONES:Well,the corporation presently owns a campt that will support up to forty-seven people,where it's catered,we have cooks --everything is completely furnished. Or,it can be provided for room,as needed,when needed by whatever number you might have.The only interference might be with all the State projects that'll be involved this spring,if R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9@ Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -227- they all materialize and go forth as planned. MR,HUTTRER:where is that located,Marv? MR.JONES:Well,presently it's down by APL, which is American President Line dock.Hopefully within the next six weeks it will be moved out towards the neck of the spit,out beyond the airport,which actually in miles you're looking probably around three-quarters of a mile from the airport. MR.HUTTRER:Is that something that you have a standard fee for that you just arrange it on a per-man,per- day basis? ) MR.JONES:Right.The larger the crew,the less.expensive per man it would be. MR.HUTTRER:Is that a situation where you provide linen.... MR.JONES:Everything,total package.A man walks in with his toilet gear and his own personal clothing. MR,HUTTRER:no you have any idea of what the cost per man would be,a ballpark figure? MR.JONES:Depending upon the --the numbers involved,it's going to run --if we could occupy it at about 90%,it would run down to about $50.00 per man per day,or upwards to about $65.00 or $70.00.If we had to put a cook in there to support four or five people,it's going to be around $70.00 a day. R &R COURT REPORTERS S1ON STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.IRD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 ee ae -_were cnc meee we ee ee ee -228- MR.HUTTRER:That's pretty reasonable -- very reasonable. MR.JONES:That's room and board.Comparing to the Inn --right now to feed somebody at the Inn and feed 'em,you're talking about close to $100.00 a day. MR.HUTTRER:Outstanding.That's really very helpful. MR.JONES:So I think we can take care of your --your needs locally. MR.HUTTRER:Beautiful. MR.JONES:However,don't anticipate you're coming to the big city. MR.HUTTRER:Well,that's why I..... MR.JONES:I don't want any misnomers in that respect. MR.HUTTRER:Metropolitan,beautiful,downtown Dutch Harbor. . MR.ISSELHARDT:After Makushin,it's going to look like Hollywood. MR.HUTTRER:God forbid.Any other comments on housing?Dick or Corky,Dwight?It's just.a subject that I think.... MR.ISSELHARDT:Well,I think we are probably better off going with a Weatherport from what John said. MR.HUTTRER:Sure.I think you had leaned that R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 9950t -229- way anyway,hadn't you? MR.ISSELHARDT:Yeah,it looks like pretty nice stuff. MR.CAREY:That's when they're up on the hill? MR.ISSELHARDT:Yeah,right. MR,HUTTRER:f think we have pretty well covered #nine,transportation and accessibility.We can go into it a little bit more.I would like to --I guess we can expand it just a little bit more. MR.CAREY:I was going to say how do you get from Makushin to Dutch Harbor? MR.HUTTRER:Well,that's what I was going to say.I understand that there's a --that there has been a helicopter based in Dutch Harbor.Is that correct? MR.JONES:Marv Jones.Yes,there's one helicopter that's there most of the time.However,last year there was two additional companies that came to Dutch during the summer months.One was Evergreen Helicopter Service.So, it varies from one up to three or four at a time. MR,HUTTRER:Evergreen out of Anchorage that would have..... MR,JONES:Right. MR,HUTTRER:.,..,..had a subsidiary and kept a chopper based there for awhile? MR.JONES:Well,they had enough use for it, R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 -230- they kept an operator there for several months. MS.DeJONG:Who was (Inaudible,away from mike) MR,JONES:I think so,:yeah,ERA. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Garret? MR.JONES:ERA. MR.HUTTRER:E-r-a. MR.JONES:Yeah. MR.HUTTRER:We'll have to check in with them and make sure that --see if their plans included that this year. MR..MOTYKA:(Inaudible,away from mike)that they were gone,and then they came back for awhile.Because there was an outfit working with the oil companies,setting up the beacons --communications use. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Yeah,that's what brought 'em to Dutch last year.© MR.MOTYKA:Okay.I couldn't get that helicopter.They wouldn't cooperate with me at all.And the other one that you have based in Unalaska --the problem with that one --the little piston job --couldn't get a pilot to fly it. MR.JONES:Unless he's got a license now to fly it. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:I think Jack's got a R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 ye a wee ee ceeoe ee ee an ees -231- license. MR.JONES:He's got it now?Okay. MR,HUTTRER:Marv?' MS.DeJONG:Is he a commercial operator? MR.JONES:He is,yes,now.He wasn't at the time.It's a little Bell that he has. MR.REEDER:IS that the helicopter that you're speaking of now that's stationed..... MR.JONES:Yeah,he's still out there.He was flying --even Sunday he went out by Makushin. MR,HUTTRER:[gs this the one that's named Crazy Harry? MR.JONES:No,Dirty Jack.Same difference. Close enough. MR,HUTTRER:Close enough. MR.REEDER:That's the only one,though,right now? - MR.JONES:That's correct. MR.HUITTRER:As far as transporting people from Anchorage to Unalaska,do you have a recommendation in there as to the least expensive method? MR.JONES:Excuse me --from Anchorage..... MR.HUTTRER:Anchorage..... MR.JONES:.....to Dutch? MR.HUTTRER:.....t0O Dutch. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0373 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 * -232- MR.JONES:There's only two ways to go unless you charter,and that's Airpac or by Reeves.My recommendation would be to go by Airpac.They've got some larger aircraft now;they'll fly up to sixteen. COURT REPORTER:Excuse me,Mr.Jones.Would you attach that microphone rather than hold it? MR.JONES:But it's between a two-and-a-half and three hour trip if you fly Airpac direct,where if you go by Reeves you could spend all day. MR.HUTTRER:I understand you can get hung up in Cold Bay,too. ) MR.JONES:Yeah,three to four days at a time. MR.HUTTRER:Delightful.Good movies,good recreation. MR.NEFF:It's --Paul Neff,Jerry --I think the way to go is mobile all at one time,and Airpac charter 'em out.7 7 MR.MOTYKA:If you!re going to air freight with Reeve,be aware you may get things stranded someplace out in the Chain,and it may take weeks before you get it. MR.HIUTTRER:Okay,those are some of the answers. I wanted to hear.Good. ae MR.MOTYKA:Reeve is safe --super safe. They'll get you there;might not get your gear there. ae MR.HUTTRER:Airpac isn't? R &R COURT REPORTERS sf,BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE <3 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 233- MR.MOTYKA:I'm sure they have a good safety record,too. MR.JONES:If I could add something --Marv Jones again --there are two or three charter companies that do fly quite often into Dutch Harbor with different sized aircraft,so you won't have any problems as far as chartering for freight. MR.HUTTRER:Is there a possibility of sharing flights with people who have large charters,that..... MR.JONES:From time to time. MR.-sUTTRER:Do the corporations from time to time move large piecesof equipment,or large quantities of materials out there? MR.JONES:The whole city does,whether 'it:: be the corporation or the City of Unalaska,or some of the other processors that are there. MR.HUTTRER:Could we coordinate with them and somehow find out when these charters are going out?I don't know if it'd be to our advantage or not --so if there's room on a space available basis..... MR.JONES:You could always contact either the City or the corporation.We can pretty much forecast if we had anything coming out in the near future.You can still move product by Sea-Land from Anchorage. MR.HUTPRER:How long does that take? R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8843 272-7318 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 vv aeee ge MR.JONES:Depending on when you catch 'em.If you catch 'em within two or three days of sailing,you can get out within a week or ten days.It could conceivably be five to six weeks. MR.HUTTRER:How long doestheactual travel from point to point take? MR.JONES:Five days,I think --four to five days.Most of the companies --and I don't mean to be disrespectful to the State of Alaska,but most of us in Dutch Harbor ship out of Seattle.It's more economical,and it*s much faster. MR.HUTTRER:.It's less expensive ta ship out of Seattle? MR.JONES:Yes,it is.Plus,there's four different services available in Seattle,where there's only one in Anchorage. MR.HUTTRER:Do you know the names of some of those,off-hand? MR.JONES:Yes,I do. MR.HUTTRER:I wonder if you could --if you could rattle off a few of those for the record,here,because we'd like to --or did you hesitate to do that? MR,JONES:No,I don't mind.Alaska Aleut Shippers,Foss is also coming out --they're the ones that haye the military contract --and Western Pioneer,and Sea-Land also R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 5 Vere ee a a 235- 1 comes out from time to time. 2 MR.HUTTRER:That might --that might be a 3 Major point to consider,especially when you consider a drill 4 rig.If you could mobilize a rig out of Seattle less 5 expensively than you could mobilize one out of Anchorage by 6 barge,that's a whole new ballgame.I mean a big rig. 7 MR.JONES:Foss's barge could handle your 8 rig,I'm sure. 9 MR,HUTTRER:That's pretty interesting.Well, 10 I have #ten here.That subject was storage facilities,which .11 is kind of ancillary to housing.In this case I was thinking /12 more about storage of equipment,say,at Makushin.Is there 13 any problem with --with safety about --if we had to leave 14 a@rilling supplies,drilling equipment at Driftwood Bay,John or 15 Roman,would you --would you hesitate or is there a problem 16 we have as far as theft,vandalism,burglary? 1 MR.MOTYKA:I don't think there's a whole bunch 18 of people that ever get over there. 19 MR.HUTTRER:Could we put in some light 20 buildings..... 21 MR.MOTYKA:.....(Indiscernible,simultaneous 22 speech)to answer that.I certainly don't think you would, 23 but.... oo 24 MR.NEFF:I've got some experience --Paul /25 Neff here.I've got two Met(ph)stations out there in the area R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 --.:::..- 24 -236- right now.One's fairly remote;it's out at Eider Point,which is up at the north tip of Unalaska Bay there,and we have had that vandalized. MR. MR. HUTTRER:Really? NEFF:Yes.It would not be my recommendation to leave things alone. MR.HUTTRER:What would it take to protect them?Just locks,or German shepards,or..... MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. different situation There's some pretty conducive to random that. MR. NEFF:Person on site..... HUTTRER:Really? NEFF:.....is what I'd rely on. HUTTRER:That's unfortunate,yeah. MOTYKA:Eider Point's accessible by skiff? NEFF:Yes,it is.And you do have a at Driftwood,from what I understand. severe surf there,so it may not be landings to look around,and stuff..like MOTYKA:I doubt it.They'd probably just fly and --probably pretty much restricted to flying and walking in across that pass,I would think. MR. MR. NEFF:It may be a different situation. MOTYKA:They do have some buildings at Driftwood Bay site that you can --you could probably use for storage.I don't know who they belong to,whether they're R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 237- still military or they --to the corporation,or what. MR.HUTTRER:How about in town,Marv --storage there?Is there anyplace that you could rent to store..... MR.JONES:Do you need dry storage inside buildings? MR,HUTTRER:probably dry. MR.JONES:We have warehousing available.The term --the time that you may.acquireitwould be a question because we very seldom ever have any surplus for any length of time. MR,HUTTRER:Space,that is? MR.JONES:Space,buildings.However,if we had an idea that you were going to need three of four thousand square feet of space for three months,or two months,or whatever,we could make it available.If it's smaller than that,that'd be no problem.I've got...... MR,HUTTRER:[t'd probably..... MR.JONES:.....some smaller. MR,HUTTRER:...,.be drilling related things that.... MR.YARTER:1,500 square feet would be more than adequate.for (Inaudible,.away from mike). MR,HUTTRER:I'm just thinking about drills, cement,mud,stuff that can be perishable in the rain --parts. MR.JONES:If you're looking at 1,500 feet or R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 feet te peepee meee .ee ee mas ae -238- thereabouts,we could even put it into one of the large buildings we have that's heated with our electrical distribution system on the opposite end. MR.HUTTRER:Great. MR.JONES:So that small a space,there's no question,no problem.Getting back to your pilferage problem, if it's known that.you have technical gear,several people who are very notorious on the island - I would recommend,as he indicated,put a guard with it.If it's large,massive drilling equipment,things of that nature,no,there would be no need for it;it'd be very difficult to remove it.But anything that's relatively small,very technical,you bet. MR.HUTTRER:It'll disappear. MR.JONES:That it will. MR,HUTTRER;Well,I..... MR.NEFF:That addresses theft.We had -- our incident happened to us twice.One,we had the cups shot out of the anemometer.But then we had a guy come ashore,climb the tower,and rip the tape out. MR.CAREY:Just to take the tape out? MR.NEFF:Yeah,just to take the tape out. MR.JONES:Keeping in mind there's not a lot to keep the people occupied;they'll find all kinds of ways to.spend the day. MR.CAREY:There aren't as many road signs in R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE tO?S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 Alaska as there are in California to shoot out,so they have to plunk(ph)at anemometer cups instead of road signs. MR.HUTTRER:It's a moving target. MR.CAREY:That's true. MR.ISSELHARDT:We'll organize a rugby team. That'll keep 'em busy MR.HUTTRER:Well,I think that topic has been discussed a little bit.Communications.I assume that _ there's --are there at least two frequencies that we could use for short-wave radio type communication back to --either to Dutch Harbor or to Anchorage?Or let me ask the question and --ask a question,how did you communicate,if at all, when you were in the field when you've been working up there? MR.MOTYKA:Poorly. MR.HUTTRER:If at all,eh? MR.REEDER:What - this is John.What we did last summer is we used VHF marine radio for most of our communications,which was from land to --to some of the processors and so forth.I don't know if they can --if they really run checks on something like that or not,but it worked very well,at least for short distances. MR.HUTTRER:Did you need a license for it? MR.REEDER:Well,I don't know if --I didn't ask very many questions.I just took the VHF radio and took it out with me.And I was told to keep it quiet because -- R&R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET,SUITE 101 509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3ROD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 240- but then I was also told here in Anchorage that down in Dutch Harbor you can get away with a lot.The year before we had State radios down and used 'em,and I had a lot of trouble trying to use it in the Dutch Harbor area.I don't know what it is,but we never really did get that radio working.In fact,there was only one time that it worked halfway decent, and that's when I got sort of an SOS call from Roman from Umnak,and that was just the one time,and it just happened to be probably a halfway decent time for the radio to work. MR.MOTYKA:Glad you heard that one. MR.REEDER:And I think that my main trouble was the antenna,and I think the --the basic fact that I was always in an area where there was a lot of military supplies, metal,this kind of thing,which may have had an effect.But that's just my own version on that. MR.HUTTRER:Is there an alternative to radio? Can we radio back into Dutch?Is there someplace that is manned,or that we could set up a headquarters or some kind of an arrangement where somebody might be tuned to a radio?Is there a fishing station or a company where you could get into them? MR.JONES:You might be able to tie into the Police Department because of your remoteness,and because of the fact that you may need emergency help from time to time. Public Safety --they've got --oh,ten divers,as an example. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 10t S09 W.3ROD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 a ae >pyre ne ne er re ee -241- They're quite diversified for various protection.I'd recommend you go through Public Safety.VHF radios would probably be the only way to go. MR.MOTYKA:Fish &Game has a frequency there, too,I think,that they monitor. MR.JONES:Yeah,but again,if it's during the heavy crab season,the thing is jammed up pretty heavy. MR.HUTTRER:What is crab season --what time of year? MR.JONES:Well,tanner crab will start the 15th of February and go on through whenever the quota's obtained.This year,since we had such a poor king crab season,they're apt to be out fishing most of the year,going into bottomfish.I would think the activity on Fish &Game is going to increase.But the man that you'd want to speak to in Public Safety would be Captain or Chief of Police,Royal Nelson. That's who I would recommend you talk to. MR.HUTTRER:Well,that's a very good.help. That's a great help.I don't think there's that much more to it.Let me ask this,did you ever use radios between --you never had a field crew operating on the hill at the same -- more than one person,did you,on --on Makushin at the same time? MR.REED:On Makushin?No,never a large group. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 10t 509 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -242- MR.HUTTRER:I just didn't know whether you had small personal radios to communicate with each other for safety purposes. MR.MOTYKA:Yeah,we had walkie-talkies. MR,HUTTRER:Did you? MR.REEDER:Walkie-talkies,and that's it. MR.HUTTRER:What kind of --line of sight? MR.MOTYKA:Uh-huh,pretty much line of sight. MR.HUTTRER:Two mile limit,three mile limit? MR.MOTYKA:About that. MR.REEDER:We --with our VHF radio,which with no --just the portable antenna and the battery operated, we were able to pick up people from the Makushin --I mean, from Unalaska Bay,and also from boats passing by Driftwood, but in transmitting..... MR.HUTTRER:Yeah. MR.REEDER:.....we were just a little too far,so you have to get a better power supply. MR.RUTTRER:.Did you have a lot of trouble with the radios,as far as dampness? MR.MOTYKA:Could be a problem.Usually double wrapped 'em in heavy duty plastic bags. MR,HUTTRER:Where did you get the radios? Did you buy them,or are they State property? MR.MOTYKA:State frequencies,State property. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 Ww.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 oo ee ee ee eg rn -243- MR.HUTTRER:Do you need licenses for those? MR.MOTYKA:The walkie-talkies?I don't think so.You need tem for the short --the single sideband radios, we have to get licenses.We have one that didn't operate too well out there,but you can get whatever crystal,I think,you want --frequency you want adjusted to key into the --into the..... MR.'HUTTRER:The police station. MR.MOTYKA:.....yeah,police station,or whatever. mR,HUTTRER:+don't need the police station to be tuning into every conversation on the hill,but I can see where we've got three crews working out there,and I'd like to have a radio out at the drill site,I'd like to have a radio back at --you know --somebody else is up on the hill,and he breaks a leg,he sprains an ankle,you've got to have some help. MR.MOTYKA:-A lot of your work is going to be line of sight,and I think the little hand-held walkie-talkies would be more than adequate.The other thing I used out there is CB radios.A lot of people carry them in their trucks,or whatever,on shipboard,and I've found that it's easy to pick up somebody on that. mR,HUTTRER:oOxay.Speaking about emergencies and medical,what sort of facilities are available in Dutch -- what can you handle in the way of accidents?Is there any kind R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7915 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 9950! 244- of a doctor,is there..... MR.JONES:We have a small clinic,but no fulltime doctors.We have a medic,and a staff of two or three nurses..I don't believe any of 'em are --are registered nurses;I think they're practical's.Most of the medical problems are Medivac'd into Anchorage,of any major consequence.They can set a few bones if it's not a real compounded fracture.But I wouldn't want to relate to anything real professional.We do have a nice ambulance now; it's set-up like they do in the major cities.for running around and taking care of the immediate problem.But they move everybody into Anchorage as quickly as possible. MR.HUTTRER:If somebody's sick --let's assume that he's got something that would be treated by a.. doctor in Anchorage with an antibiotic shot and a couple of pills.Is that available? MR.JONES:-That's available. MR,HUTTRER:59 you don't have to really evacuate somebody? MR.JONES:X-rays are available,limited amount. , MR,HUTTRER:what is the situation with drinking water and any problems as far as health problems for those of us who aren't used to your normal --your local water? Is there any problem? R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 Ww.3RD AVENVE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7513 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 245- MR.JONES:We don't have Montezuma's Revenge out there. MR.HUTTRER:You say you do,or you don't? MR.JONES:We don't. MR,HUTTRER:you don't. MR.JONES:I don't know of anything that's going to cause you a problem.... MR.HUTTRER:Yeah. MR.JONES:.....unless you get pretty careless. MR.HUTTRER:All right,medical,what else is there?fhat's about it,really.I was just curious about the answers to some of those. MR.JONES:But there is --earlier today it was mentioned that there's no insects on the island.Down in the lower part of Makushin there's some real large mosquitoes,if you will. | MR.HUTTRER:Well,maybe we don't.... MR.JONES:If you find a calm day,and you try to go through those marshes down there,they'll eat you alive, just about like Fairbanks.So you always hope that you have wing when you're in that area. MR.HUTTRER:Yeah. MR.GRABACKI:Excuse me,this is Grabacki. I've got a question for John about drinking water at these remote camps up on the side of the mountain.Are there any -- R &R COURT REPORTERS B10ON STREET.SUITE 10t SO8 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8943 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 246- are there pretty good streams that you can be assured of clean water supply,and that sort of thing?Or do you have to haul your own water? MR.REEDRR:Well,everytime I was backpacking I always carried water with me,but there's plenty of sources for good water. MR.CAREY:Like at Sugarloaf?Did you ever put a camp there? MR.REEDER:Right at Sugarloaf,on the very top --of course,there isn't --on the ridge there isn't any running water,but all you have to do is drop down a very short distance,like in some cases only a couple hundred feet there's usually some running water,usually from snow melt or something.There's probably a little bit of ground water feeding those streams,and of course,precipitation. MR.HUTTRER:Good.Can you think of anything else?Any points on medical things?If not,we'd like to move on to this thirteenth subject here.We've talked about several of them already,and as a matter of fact,we've probably covered virtually all of them.But I'd like to go through them again.It may not take very long.Helicopter contractors.I hear ERA,and I hear Evergreen.Are these the two best bets, at least,and plus Dirty Jack(sic)? MR.JONES:Well,if you're wanting large -- large helicopters from time to time and total service,I'd R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.ARO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-OS73 277-8343 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -247- recommend you go to a firm here in Anchorage.However,I would recommend that you contact one of them that's very familiar with terrain in the --and the variables in Dutch Harbor,and it's one that has not been mentioned today,but the williwaw winds of the Aleutians are the problem.I wouldn't bring a guy up from California that'd take a chopper out there;he's going to end up on the cocks. MR.BUTTRER:Is that a northerly,or is that just either direction? MR.JONES:Well,it comes from all directions at the same time,and you don't know if it's up or down. -HUTTRER:sounds like in California.MR. MR.JONES:And when you go out you're either going to become a white-knuckle flier if you aren't already, because it's pretty hairy,at best.So,it's going to have to be somebody who's pretty familiar with the terrain. MR.YARTER:Who would you recommend? MR.JONES:As I said,Evergreen is the one that's the predominant factor that's there when needed by most of the major companies.They've done a lot of survey work for some of the geophysical boats out of Texas and various places. And they seem to be consistent,and they're always on site when needed.Jack is all right on a small scale,flying back and forth;he's just got the small bird and that's all he's got. MR.HUTTRER:He's got a little Bell GC3? R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W,3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 ot tememeomeeggag cere -248- MR.JONES:Yeah,uh-huh.A little Bell;I don't know which model it is. MR,HUTTRER:Two people plus.... MR.JONES:Yeah. MR.HUTTRER:.....a pilot?Barges,we were talking --Marve gave us three or four names,barge groups.Is there anything anyone can add to that?We've talked about the availability of landing craft,barges. MR.JONES:You --since you're looking down the road a few months,you may want to contact Alaska Shippers, because they're anticipating bringing some additional barges into the community,and also plugs for pilot work.And they may be able to bring you up to speed and to advise you of the future. MR.CAREY:That's Alaska Aleut.... MR.JONES:Yeah,Alaska Aleut Shippers. MR.KUPPRER:I think these are really matters that will concern us a little bit more for next year.I don't think we'll get into that this year,but it's still good to have the information.and prepare ourselves for it.Housing and camps,I think we've just gone through that.Contractors, we actually named the Weatherport people.Is there anybody else that you can think of that is worth discussing..... MR.ISSELHARDT:Well,we have to talk about.... MR.HUTTRER:....portable housing? R&R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 24 25 we eg -249 - MR.ISSELHARDT:.....when we get to the point when we need a complete portable camp,and a cook,and et.cetera,et.cetera. MR,HUTTRER:Have any of you had any experience working with equipment suppliers? MR.ISSELHARDT:Caterers or.... MR.NEFF:Yeah,there --Paul Neff --there are two,at least,based out of Anchorage that have worked State-wide.They've put up camps and operated 'em in a turnkey fashion.I'm sure they could do it down there,too. There are also facilities down there.The corporation facilities are an option.I'm sure they'd be interested in.... MR,HUTTRER:We're talking about up on the hill.Do you actually --does the corporation run a camp service,actually,where you would cater..... MR.JONES:Not..... MR.HUTTRER:.....an entire operation? Because when we're drilling the deep hole,we'll be talking about how many people in the crew,twenty people? MR.YARTER:Well,you'd have to figure on probably thirty people average. MR,HUTTRER:Fulltime on the hill? MR.YARTER:People in and out.... MR,HUTTRER:Two chefs..... COURT REPORTER:I can't hear you,Mr.Yarter, R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 309 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -250- without a microphone on. MR.YARTER:For a full scale drilling operation you can figure an average of thirty people a day,in and out. MR.HUTTRER:So,does the --does the Aleut Corporation get into that businessat.all? MR.JONES:We're not the Aleut Corporation. MR,.HUTTRER:No,excuse me. MR.JONES:We're the Ounalashka Corporation. MR.HUTTRER:I'm sorry. MR.JONES:We wouldn't be interested at this time of supplying a camp facilities outside of Dutch Harbor. I don't know --Boatel is one that I think you're referring to, that would be willing to go to remote areas such as Makushin and operate out of a tent.They're primarily camp facility operators.They want the full-scale kitchen facilities,they want kitchen trailers,laundry trailers,rec.center type operations.They don't rough it to the point of cooking over a stove in atent.And I don't know if you'll have any success of obtaining anyone locally that'd be interested in it. MR.HEUTTRER:We're not talking about roughing it quite that much.When we come to the second stage,I'm afraid we're going to have to cater to the drillers,who are a lot more delicate than the geologists.And.... UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:(Inaudible) R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0972 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 ne ee _-ne RE ERE TE WE ge RR TeRg eR>eee -251- COURT REPORTER:I'm.a real good cook ata camp stove. MR.JONES:It's possible you could get some small Atco trailers up there.Again,it's going to depend on how you find that you're going to transport the drilling rig and some of the other equipment.Once you've established that, the whole complexion may.change. MR.ISSELHARDT:I've talked to Alaska Bush Camps.They're supposed to be --I don't know how gaod they are,but they're...... MR.HUTTRER:What's..... MR.ISSELHARDT:....(Indiscernible,due to simultanous speech)with Weatherport,and there's..... MR.AUTTRER:|...Goodrich? MR.ISSELHARDT:....Yeah,Dennis Goodrich, and Production..... MR.NEFF:Production Services. MR.ISSELHARDT:....Production Services is supposed to be another good..... MR.NEFF:There's also Campco. MR.ISSELHARDT:Yeah,Campco's..... MR.NEFF:Campco's been up here a long time. MR.JONES:But if you guys get into a regular camp facility,you will probably find several that'll be interested. R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7815 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 og me A eros eg: 252- MR.HUTTRER;So that's no major problem,huh? It's just a matter of contacting people and selecting one,and saying..... MR.JONES :The problem's going to get the camp set up,I think. MR.HUTTRER:I think that's the problem, getting it set up. MR.JONES:And to keep it there. MR,RUTTRER:yeah,on the ground. MR.JONES:Setting it there is one thing,but to keep it where you place it is going to be a major problem. MR,HUTTRER:They might sell a lot of brown bags,see how people like that.Drilling,I think we've essentially discussed that.I don't see any purpose in going over that once more.Aerial survey,we've discussed. Contractors,the names came out earlier in the conversation as to - what was that,Airpac?And there's two or three other companies here out of the airport that do fly air photos. MR.GRABACKI:Air Photo Tech and..... MR.NEFF:North Pacific. MR.GRABACKI:......North Pacific. MR.NEFF:Right,thank you.Construction equipment --Marv,you've covered that pretty well with us as to what was available in the way of front-end loaders,Cats, a blade,or..... R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99301 a ee en eee)re cere -we -253- MR.JONES:In addition to what I've already mentioned about the various items available now,there are two private contractors in our area in addition to the corporation, so it's conceivable there's three or four front-end loaders in the size that I mentioned,or close to it,available.Frank Arriaga with Marine Construction and Engineering is one of the private contractors.Henney(ph)Construction Company's still another.He may be interested and also be available to do certain service work for you. COURT REPORTER:What was that last name? Frank what? ) MR.JONES:Frank Arriaga of Marine Construction and Engineering. COURT REPORTER:Can you spell that name for me? MR.JONES:Arriaga?A-r-r-i-a-g-a. COURT REPORTER:Thank you. MR,HUTTRER:That sort of leads us into #G here,which is labor availability.It moves in --is there some labor available out of Dutch if we should need to hire casual,short term laborers? MR.JONES:I don't want you to misinterpret -- I'm not trying to avoid your question.And I!m not on the Chamber of Commerce,as you might be aware.There's no such thing as unemployment in Dutch Harbor,but please don't take that out of the room.When you run out of work in Dutch Harbor R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 nee ee ee eewe ee om eee=sk:receeree:ae i wow 254- you get the hell away from it as quick as you can,because you won't survive very long out there because of the economic situation.Good,qualified people that you can depend on,I would be very hesitant to say yes,there's any large number. There are certain times of the year,if you catch 'em when the processers are shutting down or something,you might be able to pick up some part-time people that you can depend on. Again,it's something that you should forecast to the community,either through the City or through our office.We can advise you of the situation at hand at that time.But to tell you that you can fly into our community and pick up six guys tomorrow or twelve,forget it.I wouldn't recommend you try it. MR.HUTTRER:What would the reception be for us to bring in hands from Anchorage,and bring them in?Would that be unfavorably received politically,or would people resent it?Are you goingto get resentment either way? MR.JONES:You'll get a lot more resentment if you don't at first attempt to hire locally.. MR.HUTTRER:That's what we anticipate. MR.JONES:Very much so. MR.HUTTRER:Well,we'd like to eliminate that,so I think we'll just make it a habit if we are looking for that sort of thing. MR.JONES:I would like to just mention and R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENVE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 --«ela me wos os se eugeneee ee -255- go on record,the sad part about Dutch Harbor and Unalaska, we are a community of approximately --and this is a variable number because of who you speak to,but it's from 1,700 to about 2,300 permanent population.We are,however,required to support a community upwards to 5,000 people from time to time because of the nature of our industry.The city is never blessed with excess money.In fact,we're a very,very poor community.We need a tremendous amount of outside help if we're ever going to prosper.That's one of the reasons that not only myself,but Vince Tutiakoff and Jesse Burton was here today,because the only way that Dutch Harbor and Unalaska will ever survive is if we can come up with a very inexpensive source of power.We're strapped.We have to generate our own power as Many other companies do.So,I'd say if you're going to come into the community and be reckoned with,the only way you want to come in is with the attitude of hiring as many people and to benefit the community as much as possible,or they're going to be very,very resentful.And I think this is the attitude the community is going to dwell on.They're getting tired of people coming in and taking advantage of the mere fact we're there,and taking all the money elsewhere and running and playing with it someplace else.We want a little bit of it left behind.» MR,HUTTRER:I'm kind of glad you said that, because that's exactly what I was hoping might come out a little R &R COURT REPORTERS 810 N STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7818 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -256- bit earlier,anyway,because I think that's a realistic attitude.I see no problem with it.It's --we'll try to -- it's to our advantage if we can get hands that are willing to work and do whatever we have in mind at the time,to certainly try and get them out of Dutch,because there's no point in flying people back and forth from Anchorage just for..... MR.JONES:Well,to give you an idea,up until today,in fact,the last four months the community of Unalaska, or the City itself,which is not Umaknak(ph)Island that I'm relating to --we're paying 34¢a kilowatt for power.And some of those people out there are spending three or four hundred dollars a month for electricity,and they're unemployed. MR.HUTTRER:Compared to 2¢in Seattle. MR.JONES:Huh? MR.BUTTRER:Compared to 2¢in Seattle. MR.JONES:-Yeah.And we have to operate a private utility company,if you will,in our duplex project alone.We feel fortunate,we're pumping it out at about 194¢.The sad part about it,we're only recovering about 20% of that from consumers.So,it's even expensive for ourselves. MR.#UTTRER:What does a gallon of diesel cost you? MR.JONES:It depends on who you are and how much you buy.Upwards of $1.60,$1.70 a gallon. R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 -257- MR.That's not so bad.That's aHUTTRER: little lower than I anticipated. MR.JONES:Yeah,but you --if you're running three 100 KW's and then once in awhile jump a 353 on top of it,you've got five generators kicking around,it gets damn expensive. MR.HUTTRER:I believe it.Well,we'd heard that there were prices up close to $5.00 a gallon in the Interior. MR.JONES:Possibly in certain areas.We're blessed in the sense of we have one of the largest Chevron supply points in the State of Alaska,which contributes to the lower cost. MR.HUTTRER:Sure. MR.JONES:They pump more diesel out of that port than any other port in the country about six weeks a year. MR.HUTTRER:34 KW --34¢a KW.That's.even out of range for my figuring on what it is per million BTU's. MR.ISSELHARDT:I think we can make geothermal competitive. MR.HUTTRER:I was just going to say.... MR.ISSELHARDT:Real competitive. UNIDENTIFIED:'VOICE:Got to find it first,Corky4J MR.ISSELHARDT:That's true,if it's there. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Something's there. R &R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE ° 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7519 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 258- MR.MOTYKA:What's the power usage in the combined community right now? MR.JONES:Approximately 5 KW.I mean,5 millawatts..... MR.MOTYKA:5 megawatts? MR.JONES:......megawatts --excuse me. MS.DeJONG:That's without the canneries. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:I know a..... MR.JONES:No,that's with the canneries.They anticipate about5 megawatts right now,but it's a question between 5 and 7 at most.If the City were to put in hydro- electric,they're anticipating a need of about 10. MS.DeJONG:Is that an average or a peak? MR.JONES:Right now,with the canneries being shut down,and the economy off,it's considerably less.We have a problem because we have to maintain ours because of the housing project.We've got eighty-six units that we lease out.They're occupied twelve months of the year.We just can't be without power,more so than the processors,even. MR.NICHOLS:This is Clay Nichols.I know a 5 megawatt geothermal power plant that's looking for a new home. You might come and get it. MR.HUTTRER:I know a 10 megawatt plant that's looking for a new home. UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:Does the down héle (ph) R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SOS W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 "259 - permits come with it? MR.NICHOLS:It'd probably be a good bargain, even at..... UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:.(Inaudible):-temperature.... MR.REEDER::Marv...-«. , UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:......sites (Inaudible) MR.REEDER:This is John Reeder.Just how is the economy at Dutch after this fishing season? MR.JONES:I think I'm kind of ganged up on here. MR.CAREY:Are you going back in this next summer,John? MR.REEDER:I hope to. MR.CAREY:The economy has taken a tremendous turn-around here in just the last three months.We were considered one of the shining lights in Dutch --in Alaska, from the outside as well as in the State.We probably had more growth potential in that small community than any other part of the State.It's unfortunate we were dependent upon one major industry,and that was the king crab.A combination of things on the off---are on the surface now,and could conceivably turn us around very quickly,and that's the oil industry.And they will be there as early as March this year.We're just kind of sitting and waiting.Again,it's one of the problems that I'm going to address tomorrow.They've attempted to R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8843 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 9950! -260- approach our community from the wrong direction,and there could be some major consequences arise from it.We need to develop industries that'll be supportive of the community ten or twelve months of the year,where the monies that is generated from those industries will stay there in part,a great deal more than it has been in the past.You have an economy of five to six thousand cannery workers,another 1,500 fishermen, and 90%of the revenue goes elsewhere.It's very,very depressing.We have about five different factions of people within our community,and sadly enough,none of those five will become a coalition.They're all opposing each other.And it's a very,very difficult way of life.And we've got to get a few city fathers who are congenial and that are willing to work together,and not be so damn negative and oppose each other. MS.DeJONG:Is there active mining on the island right now? MR.JONES:No. MS.DeJONG:How about the potential? MR.JONES:That's been --that question has been raised many times,and there has been some --various mining activities over the past twenty-five or thirty years, but none of 'em productive enough to --or economically feasible at this time.There's an abandoned gold mine,but you can't make a living at it. R &R COURT REPORTERS 3RO AVENUES10NSTREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W. 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-75tS ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 NUMR,HUTTRER:well,it's interesting to note that in the Lower '48 if geothermal has to compete with a fuel like coal,we're competing with a fuel that's'worth about: two to three dollars per million BTU's.We have a hard time competing with that,even with a good resource.If we try to compete with oil,we're talking in the six to nine dollar range, and we can usually come close to --we can probably beat that fairly consistently.If we're competing with electrical --with electricity for heat,the use of purely electricity,we're usually talking about maximum fifteen.to twenty dollars per million BTU's.If I'm not wrong,what you just told me,at 34¢per KW equates to about *107.00 per million BTU's.And if we can't come in there with some kind of geothermal thing that can beat $107.00 per million..... MR.ISSELHARDT:We're in the wrong business, brother. MR.HUTTRER:Jf agree,that's it.So,I do think that there's some hope here,despite the problems. Obviously,the project is going to face some significant, logistical problems which are not unanticipated,but I believe that the chances for successfully producing or generating electricity,if the resource is there,for less than $107.00 per million BTU's,is very real.And this is a range in which we - -we should be able to compete very realistically, especially as your fuel costs rise,as the cost of diesel R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RD AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7518 ANCHORAGE.ALASKA 99501 Mae”-262- continues to escalate,and once we have at least one producing well in there,I think that the logistics will become more -- more established,and expansion of a field to 10 megawatts or 20,which would take care of your needs for a considerable amount of time,would not be unimaginable at all.I really think that it'll be --it can free up.I don't want to put in false optimism,but I feel --::now that I know what the competition is...... MR.JONES:Maybe I said something out of turn. MR,HUTTRER:wo,I don't think so.I think what you said was just giving me an idea --if you're.paying 34¢per kilwatt,we've got something we can shoot at,really, no matter what the cost of --or the problems,I think you can justify the effort.But it'd be nice to have an economically viable project just once. MR.JONES:The community as a whole --and I'm,again,not speaking for everyone --I don't have that authority --but being in some of the committees that I'm involved with,the true feeling of Unalaska and Dutch Harbor as a community --we're hoping that you're going to be more successful than just providing us a 10.or 20.megawatt plant. The way we look at it,the only way :that Dutch Harbor will ever survive --and I mean this very seriously --on any kind of a growth pattern,would be to have available power in excess of probably 30 megawatts,upwards to possibly 40 or 50, R &R COURT REPORTERS BION STREET,SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0873 277-8543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 vAentice some major industry into the community that's going to be supported by population growth,and giving us a better tax base.A good example being that they're talking throughout the State about a petrochemical plant --nobody wants it because it's going to contaminate this and that.I can't imagine a site that'd be any more conducive of that type of operation than on the Aleutian Chain.We have 1,400 miles of islands,surrounded by water,and it'supports approximately 5,000 people.Now,why in the hell don't you come up with a source that'll bring that power in at 3 to 4¢a KW and let us put in that petrochemical plant for Alaska,and if we are on the verge of being the dominant factor in oil in the Bering Sea,right now paralleling each other you're talking about eight to ten years from the time of --we're sitting here talking today,and before you can develop your power.It's also going to be 10 years before the oil industry can pull a drop of fuel out of that Bering Sea.Why don't we put it together in a package,and unified coalition,and get it hand to hand effort and thrust,and develop the Aleutian Chain for people who want to live there,some of who's there by choice, and some are there because there's no other place for them to live.And if we can break down some of the bureaucracy and get the people working together instead of opposing each other, we're all going to benefit from it. MR.HUTTRER:Well,I sure didn't mean to R&R COURT REPORTERS B10 N STREET.SUITE 101 S09 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-6543 272-7515 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 limit the production potential of Makushin to 20 megawatts. I think in geothermal terms a 5 or 10 megawatt geothermal plant is about the minimum that can be put in.There are some even smaller ones,down to the tune of half .amegawatt,or 500 KW.But in general terms,we think of wellhead units as being 5 and 10 megawatt wellhead units,and when you talk about real plants --I mean,buildings --the general standard for the industry is around a 55 megawatt unit.At geysers they go in units of 55,which means two to a building is 110.So that when you talk about looking and hoping you can generate 40,50 megawatts,if the resource has anything to say for it, you have no problem whatsoever in generating that much power. The volcanic --look at the Phillipines,which is a volcanic terrain;you look at Costa Rica and at Nicaragua,and these areas in Japan,all of which are similar geologically.Nobody's talking about 10 megawatts there;they're talking about the ultimate capacity,which.is in the hundreds and the thousands of megawatts.So,shooting high is no problem for the project. And regarding 3 and 4 kilowatt --cents per kilwatt --I won't guaranty that even if we have the best possible success here you're going to come in at 3 to 4¢per kilowatt.My guess is you're probably within coming in at 7 to 9¢--7¢, somewhere in that ballpark.But even that's a lot better than --r than 34. MR.JONES:You'd better believe it.You know -+f R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET,SUITE 101 S09 W.3RD AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 --age --ht.i adh io mem a Cy-265- if you're going to dream,we can dream all day.I'd like to see 3¢;if you can do it at 7,fine --you know.I negotiate all the time;that's part of my job. MR.HUTTRER:See if you can negotiate us a way to get up.on the hill with a drill rig. MR.JONES:If you come into our community with the right attitude and right frame of mind,you'll find that you'll get a lot of support --tremendous amount of support,because we know where we're going,and we --we have to have the help from outside.And'this is the only real way that I think it'll ever happen. MR.HUTTRER:That's why we ask you to come here,we ask the other gentleman from-:the village corporation, and from Ounalashka Corporation,and try to get as many different people from different entities in here,so we can at least get the communications opened.If we can maintain it, we'll sure give it a try,and that's all we can say. MR.CAREY:I think it's only fair to say,too, that we know sort.of where we're supposed to try and go,but we need your help to get there as well. MR.JONES:Well,I don't think you'll ever find anyone that's more familar.with the terrain than the Aleut people;they live there.That's their land,so..... MR.HUTTRER:Well,does anybody have any other topics that we haven't covered?The second half after the -- R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0572 -277-0573 277-8543 272-7313 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 wincedalonglieet-ateeeeebee-266- after lunch went a little bit faster than this morning,but do I hear anybody that's got something we haven't discussed:that should have been covered on the list?If not,I really would like to thank you on behalf of Republic,and the Power Authority.--I think I can speak for you,Patti.I'd like to thank all of you that came down very much.We thought we might continue this over a beer,if that's --if that's amenable. MR.JONES:That's one thing you can buy in Dutch Harbor is a beer,and a good steak. MR.HUTTRER:Carol,we thank you very much. I think we can take it off the record at this point. (OFF THE RECORD) ***END OF MEETING *** R &R COURT REPORTERS BIO N STREET.SUITE 101 S309 W.3RO AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0872 -277-0573 277-8543 272-751S5 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 24 25 Soeian"CERTIFICATE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) )ss, STATE OF ALASKA ) I,Carol Campbell,Notary Public imand for the State ofAlaska,and court reporter for R &R Court Reporters,do herebycertify:a That the annexed and foregoing Meetingwas.taken beforeme.on the lst.day of February,1982,beginning at the hour of 9:00 o'clock,a.m.,at the offices of the Alaska Power Authority,334 West Fifth Avenue,Anchorage Alaska; That this transcript,as heretofore annexed,is a true and correct transcription of the meeting proceedings,... taken by me electronically and thereafter transcribed by me; That the meeting transcript has been retained byRepublicGeothermal,Inc.,SantaFe Springs,California. I am not a relative or employee or attorney orcounselofanyoftheparties,nor am I financially interested in this matter. IN WITNESS WHEREOF,I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal this 9th day of February,1982. riNotaryPublic in and for Alaska My commission expires:2/15/82 R &R COURT REPORTERS SION STREET.SUITE 101 SO9 W.320 AVENUE 1007 W.3RO AVENUE 277-0372 -277-0573 277-8343 272-7315 ANCHORAGE,ALASKA 99501 PROPERTY OF: Alaska Power Authority 334 W.5th Ave. Anchorage,Alaska 99501